"Mothers, stop moaning!" Guardian article directed partly at MNers

[MrsJamin]

here

What do we think? Is she justified?

Personally, I can see her perspective, and utterly empathise, but I still think that we have the right to discuss our parenthood problems on MN, even if she doesn't believe that mothers ever have the right to have problems or discuss them. She is expecting wrath from us, so let's surprise her shall we?

I hate that 'I had to wait for the right man' excuse for delaying having children. If you want a child, have one. Half of the Dads will have left by the time they are 16 anyway so I don't see how it's any different starting out on your own. I loathed that article, can you tell!

Thanks joyful :) and thank you both for sharing your experiences. I'm sure it's not easy but it certainly validates what's being said.

Puddle, yes I've been in that impossible, excruciating position of being so depressed that you want to kill yourself but also feeling you can't do that to your DD. And the PND making you think horrible horrible thoughts about your innocent little DD.

I'm going to leave this thread because that article makes me so angry the more I think about it. That woman is abhorrent.

Was just going to link to the excellent blogpost by Marie Philips, but see exexpat has already done so.

Agree with a lot of the responses on here - I do have sympathy for her situation, but she is mourning the loss of a fantasy - perfect children who love you, perfect partner who loves you because you are a mother etc etc and very dismissive of the problems that can come with motherhood.

PND is devastating, for example. Even though neither PND nor Bibi Lynch's sorrow that she left it too late to have children are "as bad" as say, Starving In Africa.

Meant to put the link in again for Marie Philips blogpost

It's the same as any moan, tbh, there's always someone worse off. Should I never moan about my DH because he doesn't beat and rape me or because I have a DH? Should I not moan about money or my home because some people have none?

And the added burden of not bonding with your baby, which incidentally is completely demonised, does make PND different from other depression....not necessarily worse though.

Yes it is sad that this women cannot have a baby but I feel that is wrong for feeling that we as mothers cannot express ourselves? In fact how dare she, there are alot of people in this world who are suffering in so many ways some worse than her but they dont expect the world to stop because of their situation, it is tough being a mum, as human beings we need to talk sometimes im sure if this woman did have a child she too would be doing the same as us, if not on here then with her friends, family.

I personally come on here as I dont have a relationship with my mother, so i can get advice on parenting etc.. i'd imagine this site has helped millions of people in ways you couldnt imagine, some mothers suffer mentally after giving birth which can be traumatic, those women come on here to talk about how they are feeling, so someone can listen which actually saves lives.

Im sorry but I think this is quite self centred in my opinion

She is obviously in a lot of pain but I think some of the pain arises from an unrealistic idea about motherhood. While I adore my DC down to my bones and cells and always feel immensely grateful to have two healthy kids from 5 pregnancies, there are days that are hard and thankless and a bit grotty. I think it is OK to mention those days. I also think having kids puts as much pressure on a marriage as it enhances it.
I don't think Western society is particularly child friendly. There are a lot of contexts (like many workplaces) where the woman with a baby is not seen as having won a prize but rather as someone who will cause inconvenience and be taken less seriously.
I know people's lives don't always turn out as they want, but surely the information about declining fertility after 35 is well known now. If she feels this desperately about it perhaps she could have made it a prioity a bit sooner.
AND she lost me at the comments about being an aunt. I am very proud to be an aunt and have always found it an enriching part of my life. I love and value my own aunts enormously.

I felt very sorry for the writer.

But it occurred to me that maybe she could turn her feelings of anger and disappointment to some good - or is that too insensitive a suggestion? It's just that in my own life I know it sometimes works to take the worst things that have happened and use that experience to help others.

In a way she has already done this by writing the column. But maybe she could maximise her contact time with her sister's (or friends') children and be an important part of their lives? It's not the same, but she might be able to find some comfort there - and the children would benefit from another loving adult to turn to.

Whatever she does, I wish her luck in moving on from this. She should try not to let it rule her life (easier said than done).

I like being an aunt but I certainly didn't want to be an aunt before I became a mother. That prospect was awful!

I get the feeling that to this woman not having children is like a bereavement - like the unspeakable moment when you realise that someone dearly loved and totally irreplaceable has been taken away for ever.

Well people do get on with their lives after losing someone - a lot sadder maybe, and the hole never really does get filled, but life can still be full of good things. I hope it is for her.

I don't think she is necessarily in this position because of her own actions tho'. She may have not been able to have children at whatever age she started trying, but was responsible and tried to wait till in a secure position. This does not mean I agree with what she says, just that lives don't always work out to a timetable and we are not always lucky enough to make choices at the best time.

I don't think she has ever actually ttc as she says she never met Mr Right.

I really felt for her (although she did get quite angry and upset somewhat irrationally I thought on twitter last night at some friends of mine on twitter)

I wrote this in response:

lettersfromladycurd.wordpress.com/2012/03/31/dear-bibi-lynch/

I don't nkow if this thread is under Feminism but I do think women should act not moan. If I don't like something I change it. It's why I'm successful and why some men are more successful than women. Also if women are seen always to be discontent but never taking then we will never get anywhere.

It comes up with housewrok. Some of us not for one day would tolerate a sexist man. We'd look at his as if he were something the dog brought in if early in a relationship he suggested only women cook or clean or look after children. Other women don't let me do anything at home, pretend the men are incometent and then make it harder for themselves to get out there and earn a fortune because they have enabled male helplessness.

If some put half the effort into increasing their earnings they put into whinging about their lives they might start to match the earnings of higher paid women who just get on with things.

Sorry for her that she can't have kids,, but she should not whinge about people saying motherhood and kids can be hard as she has no first hand experience of that.

She will just have to accept that she can't have kids. C'est la vie.

I think she is spot on about a lot of it

Lurving one of the comments on the article:

"Ignore that mumsnet bollocks as well, I've always suspected most of the posters on there are knocking back the gin and orange like there's no tomorrow, and frankly I wouldn't blame them."

hahahahahaha

To be serious though although the Marie Philips article is admirably philosophical, it IS easier to say 'meh, I'd rather be clubbing anyway' when you're 35 than 46. I know I did, when I was 35 and into my late 30s, childless and ttc wasn't working.

It was much harder to cope with secondary infertility in my early 40s once I had had a child. Mid 40s - staring the menopause in the face - is a hard time anyway.

I think it's not a great idea to validate the kind of bitterness and anger shown in the article. I've seen it on here in some poster's views too. It appears that the desire for a child becomes an aggressive force. Women writing/posting/blogging angrily about how unfair it is that a friend has conceived without problems. Well hang on - the number of babies in the world isn't finite. Because somebody else has one, that doesn't mean you won't get yours - but according to the author of the article in some way mothers have done something massively wrong and must be silent for ever more because they have a baby? Well I don't see that.

It's particularly unpleasant when those with primary infertility rant about those with secondary infertility - which again, sadly, I've seen here. Women who want to be pregnant but are not/cannot be are in a wretched position but nothing permits aggression towards other women in the same situation and a diminishing of their pain by inference.

In the case of this article there is the added complication that this writer is not infertile. I think it was an excellent point made lower down that she apparently has never experienced ftc. She's 46 and childless. Many women of her age would also be unable ttc. She's made choices and decisions and now she doesn't like the result. I'm sorry for that - but there's no justification for being angry with women who by accident or design have followed another path.

To be fair, I don't think it's just her age that has caused her not to be able to have children. She had a column in Grazia about a year ago about her journey to try to conceive where she saw a number of fertility specialists and there were underlying issues, I forget what they were. She was wanting to try to conceive using donor sperm but was told that she has a less than 1% chance of conceiving.
I just felt really really sorry for her when I read the article. I do hope that she finds peace with her situation in some way, and doesn't spend the rest of her life feeling angry. It must be horrible to feel so bitter and envious, as an exhausted mum to many including a new baby it made me remember how lucky I am despite my moaning about being knackered and not having a spare moment.

that Marie Phillips blog is superb (linked by exexpat & JulesJules upthread)

'Lynch also quotes a childless friend:
?You won?t heal ? because this is deep in you. What you?re supposed to do. What?s inside us to do. What we?re born to do. And you didn?t do it.?
Is this really the only thing we are born to do? Is the meaning of life just to make more life? That?s not life. That?s fungus.'

I honestly can't imagine what response Lynch expected her Guardian piece to evoke, or what good she thought it would do, for herself or for anybody else

I don't see how she can be much of a journalist if she has got to the age of 46 without realising that everyone has a story and everyone's life is capable of bringing great pain, as well as great joy.
That man, lovingly gazing into his wife's eyes and worshipping her for bringing him children is just as likely to be wondering when he can slip away and phone the OW. That gorgeous laughing child may have a health time bomb ticking away inside them. That "yummy mummy" may be full of anxiety, has lost interest in sex and grieving the loss of her career.
Everyone has a story. No-one has a charmed or bulletproof life.

Read this blog post, on the guardian article:

www.mariephillips.co.uk/post/20230850483/on-being-childless

I like the last paragraph.