"Mothers, stop moaning!" Guardian article directed partly at MNers

[MrsJamin]

here

What do we think? Is she justified?

Personally, I can see her perspective, and utterly empathise, but I still think that we have the right to discuss our parenthood problems on MN, even if she doesn't believe that mothers ever have the right to have problems or discuss them. She is expecting wrath from us, so let's surprise her shall we?

At the end of the day we all have to take responsibility for our own actions and choices in life and not lash out at innocent bystanders.

And her comment on PND made me really angry. How dare she profess to know what I went through! She has no idea what it is like to lie in a hospital bed on a secure ward aching to be home with your baby but being so ill you think stabbing yourself in the stomach is a really good idea.

As my Nan often says, you reap what you sow.

I find the self-absorption astonishing. Of course none of us mothers could possibly have any inkling of the genuine, terrible pain of infertility. (Does she seriously think that the rest of us decided to get pregnant and 'pop'.) None of us (even when moaning about night feeds or seeking help with PND) ever look at our children and well up with tears of pure joy. None of us are found weeping at the sight of coffins brought back from Afghanistan because we know that inside is someone's child and we find ourselves grieving for the mother and father (and then put our arms tight around our children to hold them safe).

Never assume I take my children for granted. But that doesn't mean that it isn't totally legitimate to moan about potty training or primary school politics.

Me too CallinDana I resigned from one job, and from one PGCE, both times for babies that were miscarried.

I do mourn my lack of career (have always had "jobs," but never a "career") but I would rather have my DCs.

Though I think if I had been more bleeding sensible had managed things better I might have had both a career and DCs

I want to go back and slap myself sometimes! :)

tethersend I'm sure cafe lady felt very angry at what happened to her and her DC too
I was saying that there is a way to get your point across which evokes sympathy and humility, and there is a way to say essentially the same thing but in a way that doesn't make people stop and think, it just makes them feel defensive because it's just lashing out. The author is just lashing out. The rest of the world doesn't need to shut up, or be more grateful than they already are, or count their chickens or whatever. She does nothing for her "cause", her piece doesn't offer insight, it's not introspective it's just lashing out and blaming the world for her problems.

Basically all problems are particular to the individual and relative to everyone else. Using reductio ad absurdam, nobody should be allowed to moan about anything, ever, as there will be someone worse off....which is ridiculous.

And I'm not unsympathetic. I've had a few tough things happen recently, let's see, stage 3 cancer and worrying whether my children will have to grow up without me, bereavementmental illness in a close family member. But I wouldn't dream of resenting my friends moaning about their cleaner, their boss, their migraines etc. It keeps my life real and includes me in their normality. and of course I reserve the right to moan in turn about whatever smaller things are bugging me too.

and as I've said already, it's perfectly understandable for her to FEEL angry at parents, but it is not reasonable for her to not have the insight to realise that it is irrational and part of what is going on inside her own head/heart, and the parents that she is feeling angry with are not the real cause of her anger. And it is CERTAINLY not resonable for her to act her anger out publically like this.

I 100% get and sympathise with the FEELING of anger in such circumstances, but she is taking no ownership or responsibility for it whatsoever!

"I was saying that there is a way to get your point across which evokes sympathy and humility, and there is a way to say essentially the same thing but in a way that doesn't make people stop and think, it just makes them feel defensive because it's just lashing out."

I do see what you're saying, ImJust... I just think that it's unreasonable to expect everyone who is suffering to make sure they evoke sympathy and humility. It's too much to ask. Sometimes people just want and need to rant about it, and I think that's ok.

parenting - pah piece of piss - guardian lady should find some real journalism - cheapskate

She's not infertile. She's just too old. There's a difference.

I don't think there's any need for any parent to feel defensive though, on reading this. What's she going to do, come round and beat you up? It's just the way she's feeling, at the moment. You may or may not feel any sympathy for her, but there's no need to take it personally, she's having her own moan about her own problems.

Hmmm I feel for her but think she's wrong.

I had 7 years of IVF/fertility treatment.I was told I could never have children.I stared childlessness in the face.

However I had 3 children,PND and find motherhood a rollercoaster at times.Yes I give daily thanks for my 3 but sorry I do think mums have a lot to moan about.

It's bloody tough at times and until you've experienced it you just don't know.I built it up into a non stop idyllic jaunt of which any hiccup could be brushed aside by my babies smile errrr it's not actually like the that. Nothing prepares you for the stress,guilt,exhaustion,worry and yes sheer joy of it all.

That joy doesn't take the rest of it away, even though every minute is worth it.

I read the article and came straight here, I knew we'd be discussing it vigourously!

I feel for her but she is simply wrong. Mothers aren't inherently happier than anybody else.

Bibi, you may not have your wish of motherhood, but you have what many women would class as a dream job. I'd love to be a writer, so would loads if women on here who do less interesting and rewarding jobs as thats just how life panned out.

Do you wake up every day, filled with gratitude for that? Do you feel so blessed that you never moan about your job? I'll bet not.

I have a son, but there are parts of my childless life I shall mourn forever. The grass isn't greener, ask any mum. My life got a hundred times harder the day I gave birth.

And I wanted a girl. Flame away. I got a boy and I just felt so empty and let down (had pnd). I know now how wonderful he is (feel sorry for girl mummies now!) but none of us can see the future, or how these things will hit us. You could have got pregnant then had a hideous mental illness like I did, and millions of other women did.

And very respectfully, at 46 your fertility has all but gone. It's natures fault, not anybody else's. I'm an old mum and its fab and rubbish in equal measure.

Be careful what you wish for.

I think this blog post by someone who has just discovered she is infertile is an excellent riposte to the Bibi Lynch piece. Measured, reasonable, self-aware but not self-centred.

But then, from a bit of googling, it does sound like Bibi Lynch is the kind of self-centred, all-about-me columnist in the mould of of Liz Jones (see her piece about her affair with a married man etc) so it is hardly surprising that her ideas about motherhood all seem to focus on status and her own neediness rather than the responsibilities and tougher side of parenthood.

Ah yes that's a moving blog post exexpat.

Whilst her account is terribly sad, I do not think it justified.

Her basic argument seems to be:

You've got something I want, but can't have, so you're better off than me, so you should be grateful for your lot and you have no right to moan or complain.

But if you apply that reasoning from other situations - surely there are people out there without homes or jobs, that could say to her

You've got something I want (a job and a home), so you're better off than me, so you should be grateful for your lot and you have no right to moan or complain.

We don't all get what we want in life, but there are still things that she has got that she should be thankful for.

I feel sad for her, she messed up by leaving it too late but we all suffer/benefit from our own choices.

If we are going to use her logic she should be grateful for living so long, being rich compared to most people in this world, being healthy unlike all those suffering serious, painful, terminal illnesses, being able bodied and having all her senses, living in a safe country and not in a refugee camp, concentration camp or under tyrannical, murderous government, not being terrorised by gangs of yobs outside her own home, not being kidnapped for sex slavery etc... She is a very lucky woman compared to most people in this world.

It is very sad that she will never have her own baby but that doesn't make motherhood any less stressful for those who do, it doesn't make pnd non existent, it doesn't make health problems from pregnancy or birth injuries disappear. Life is full of problems, that's life. We all have them. Those of us who are lucky enough to avoid the horrors listed in the second paragraph certainly have less serious ones but they are still there and still affect us.

The comment about the memorial bench for the much loved Aunt being sad made it hard to sympathise. It was so dismissive, as if she is determined to be unhappy and not afraid to denigrate the genuine feelings of others in her mission.
I think 'much loved Aunt' is a wonderful thing to have on a memorial bench, but I am lucky enough to have three much loved aunts.

"Mothers, stop moaning!
Bibi Lynch is sick of women complaining that motherhood is hard when the pain of knowing she will never have children is so difficult to bear"

I didn't really need to read beyond this (but I did) to know exactly what I was going to get from this article. Firstly, the grouping together of all mothers into one homogenous group, because of course we're all interchangeable with each other, no individuality at all. That always pisses me off for a start.

But in essence, it's not that dissimilar from my mother's cry that there are children in Biafra who'd be grateful for what I was turning my nose up at! (Yes, I am that old.)Or many a poster here who, in response to an OP complaining about what their mother did/said, sniffily asserts that if only their poor dear mother was still alive, she could behave any way she pleased to them.

Really, if that's the best she can do, she really needs to look for another job, because her writing is lacklustre and mediocre.

I've found this thread quite fascinating to read. I come from an interesting position: we've been ttc for two long years but are very fortunate to have been told our fertility issues are reversible. I empathise with the journalist. I yearn to be a Mum and find it very difficult at times. However, my Dsis is a Mum. I know she loves and adores DS, but at times, life as a Mum is challenging! I've taken him out several times to give her some peace :) She is sensitive to our fertility issues but I don't mind her saying he's driving her mad by saying 'okaaaay?' To everything or refusing to put his shoes on! Yes I found it frustrating when someone I work with was lapse with contraception fell pregnant and was rather flippant about whether she'd keep it, but that's still her life, her choice and something she'll have to live with forever. I agree with what some people have pointed out - Bibi doesn't actually understand what's its like to ttc, month after month of trying only to have yet another period, jokes at work about getting a move on. I generally find it's not for the want of trying ha ha stops the comments without being too harsh. She complains she never found love yet had written articles about having affairs. I do feel she is where she is because of the life choices she made - as are we all - but that's very different to dealing with infertility imo.
I disagree with her aptitude to pnd. I've had depression and while it's hell, I can't imagine how it would feel to have a baby I couldn't relate to, a child I wanted to love but couldn't? There she was too flippant.
I agree in this life we should all be grateful for what we have and sensitive to who we moan to, not moaning those who long for what we have! If Bibi doesn't like what's said on MN, she shouldn't be here! I love it for the support I've received while ttc, but I'm careful about what threads I post on.
So I moan with the best of them within conception and infertility!, but I'm thankful for what I do have.

I do not think it is kind for anyone to belittle the genuine problems of anyone else by playing Top Trumps with them.

I feel bad for this woman. Infertility is a terrible thing if you want children. But I don't think it should be beyond anyone's capabilities to understand that others with 'lesser' problems can feel upset too, with whatever is bothering them.

If someone told me they had a headache, I wouldn't jump back with 'well I have a migraine so count yourself lucky'.

I wouldn't swap places with this woman, bu I do not accept that I am not allowed to complain because someone out there is worse off.

Havealittlefaith, great post. I'm glad you mentioned the PND compared to non PND depression. I've had both. But the PND has had a lasting and damaging impact not only on me but my little DD. Neither of us will ever get back the first few months that were lost to PND. Those special moments, I still cry thinking about it now.

I'm really angry that this sad and bitter woman dismisses PND so casually.

If she wants to be angry she should be angry at herself. Nobody else. She is in the position she is through her own actions or inactions. She should take responsibility for her choices in life and not throw blame and accusations at the rest of us.

Thank you jasmine. Only someone who has experienced both bless you is truly in a position to make a statement about the difference.
Maybe the issue with this article is that to be a great writer, you should write about what you know - she knows how it feels to be childless, to have.missed out on being a mother and no-one on here disputes how hard that is for her. But she speaks like she has authority on things she doesn't know - the hardships of being a Mum, how it feels to have pnd. That's what seems to offend people.

Havealittlefaith, exactly. She is talking from a position of complete ignorance as to what it is like to be a mother. She looks on it from the outside and thinks she knows what it's like. She needs to see a counsellor.