"Mothers, stop moaning!" Guardian article directed partly at MNers

[MrsJamin]

here

What do we think? Is she justified?

Personally, I can see her perspective, and utterly empathise, but I still think that we have the right to discuss our parenthood problems on MN, even if she doesn't believe that mothers ever have the right to have problems or discuss them. She is expecting wrath from us, so let's surprise her shall we?

I can see her point, or at least why she would think like she does.

However, while I love my children, it is not an easy walk in the park.

It was not easy dealing with PND after my second child, which just hit me unexpectedly as I thought, I had been ok with my first, I would be with my second. I was at one point hours away from walking out the house and finding the nearest double decker bus to just throw myself under. And it is still not easy dealing with the guilt 3 years later than I still feel in some ways closer to my first child then my second. Ds, my first is a much more affectionate and cuddly child, dd not so much, and that is my fault, for how they were dealt with at birth. I used to sit and hold ds for hours on end, dd I rarely held. I love dd to bits, but i feel like i have an easier relationship with ds.

I now work nights, and have no childcare, so have to try and get sleep in the day, with children poking me in the eyes, and using me as a slide. Life is sometimes fun and full of laughter, but sometimes it is just shit.

At the end of the day, everyone has the right to have regrets and feel like their life is hard, or did not work out how they wanted to, but they do not have the right to say that a group of people who have something they wanted, has an easy trouble free life and hence has no reason to complain.

And I think I will spend the rest of my life waiting for the hammer to fall with dd, if she ever picks up on how it was when she was born, or how to some extend I still feel like now.

Me too mrs dv She lost my fecking sympathy when she pass off pnd as if it were a toothache.

Her rantings are only relevant if we directed our moans at her she cannot expect an enitre nation to shut up about their issues in parenthood just so we dont offend her fgs.

I too have had my share of ups and downs with my children all of which i have met head on often with the support of others including mn and rl friends.
I will continue to do so and make no apology for it.

I think people shouldnt moan about being fat when they are a size 10 when i am a size 16--- need i go on?

I feel like I should sympathise with her because she's obviously sad about her situation, but she's very me-me-me and unable to empathise with anyone else. Other people having something isn't the cause of her not having it.

'She's angry. Justifiably so'.

No, there's nothing justifiable about taking her anger out on us. We haven't actually done anything to her. No-one has - she's living with the results of her own actions (or inactions). I can understand that it's ruddy hard when you realise the results of your choices are shit, but to then blame everyone else and tell them to shut the fuck up because you have it harder - when she's not actually dying of a hideous disease, or living in Syria, or in an abusive relationship, or any of other appalling things that people go through - is a bit rich, really.

I have a friend who only realised at 40 that she was desperate for a child. No man on the scene - she'd waited for Mr Right and then finally came to see that she was going to have to do this on her own. She went through endless cycles of IVF with donor sperm, without success. Never did she blame anyone else.

Very fortunately, eventually she was successful and had a baby at the age of 43. He's delightful.

Her anger is justifiable, IMO.

What she does with it may not be, but the anger itself is justifiable.

It would be more helpful for her to write a piece about how dangerous it is to put off having children if you really want them, rather than attacking women who have children IMO. She lost out on having children because she left it too late, it was a bad decision on her part and no one is responsible for that except her. I do feel for her, and I would be devastated if I were in her position but there's no point in moaning and making other people feel bad about something she brought upon herself. She is totally entitled to lament her regrets and to warn others about how devastating it can be to realise the chance to have a family is gone, but there is no need to say anything about people who do have families, as it's not their fault she's in that position.

I know a few people in their late thirties who hum and haw about having children and it drives me mad. They say "Oh yes I'd love to have children but I'm not ready yet," and they throw away good relationships for ridiculous reasons. I will comfort the inevitable few who in ten years time find themselves in the same position as this writer but that won't stop me thinking "Well what did you expect?"

Oh I recognise the irrational feelings. I had them myself when I was coming to terms with ds1 being severely disabled. But I sorted them out, without blaming everyone else and without hating the rest of the world.

No I wouldn't swap places with her but as pag says I doubt she'd swap positions with me tbh. Her vision of motherhood is rather rosy.

I am not sure if waiting for Mister Right = a life choice.

Edam, exactly. And being this sort of warts-and-all writer you can bet your bottom dollar if she had a real husband and kids she'd be wasting no time in writing a column all about them, just as she did writing about her time with someone else's husband!

If she'd asked for a little more sensitivity to be shown to her I could understand but it's all 'woe is me'/I have it harder than anyone. To dismiss PND so offhandedly just shows that she has a much understanding for that as her friend did for moaning about her baby's sex.

I agree FriendofDorothy, but I do think some women, like my sister, have ridiculous ideas about marriage and shoot themselves in the foot when it comes to relationships. She had Mr Right and she fucked it up by treating him like shit.

Not going to attempt to top Pag, Cherrypie and MrsDV.
Spot on.

Right, here we go.

I know a wonderful lady who decided fairly early on in life that having a child was a top priority, so she made a pact with herself: if she hit 35 and hadn't met the perfect man she'd go it alone and have IVF to achieve her dream. Knowing this was always a possibility, she worked hard and saved hard. At 35, and still single, she went through with her plan (which luckily for her, worked) and she is now mum to gorgeous twins. It's not been an easy road though. I feel that if this lady was so sure she needed children in her life, why not make allowances sooner? Why wait until 46 to have her fertility tested?

As for not complaining, come and live a day in the life of a mum with a child who is going to die- I live that life every day, and I'm sure that pain is at least equal to the pain of not having a child, so I'd urge her to think of the various difficulties parents face before making such sweeping statements.

She also has an idealised view of motherhood- being loved unconditionally and protected by our partners just because we are the mother of their offspring. It may be that romantic for some, for others it's just a case of getting through another day without buckling under the stresses that children being to a relationship.

The grass isn't always greener.

She's not "taking her anger out on us." She's not tracking every Mother in the UK down and punching us all in the face.

She is expressing how she feels in particular circumstances. Writing an article on a point of view that not everyone will understand.

If it was more measured it would not have the emotional impact. It's an emotional piece, I thought, and effective.

I didn't think she blamed anyone else, I am being too lazy to check the article again, but I thought she said this was all down to her "fucking up" and leaving it all too late.

I felt a bit that way when we were trying to conceive and failing (whoever made that simplistic statement about 'she can have a baby just not with her own eggs' back on page 2 wants slapping btw - do you have ANY idea how low the success rate for IVF/egg implantation in women over 40??) but I didn't get angry with the people who had children, I reserved that for those who made silly statements like 'just relax and it'll happen' then I went home and cried...

She can't hold other mothers responsible for her own lack of children. I get that she's angry, and I do feel sorry for her, but then I go on to read what she's actually mourning ("I will never be protected by the father of my child, never be loved as the mother of his child, never love like you love, and never be loved as you're loved. I will never mean as much to anyone as you do") and I think gosh, you're rather self-centred. Which is not the best quality for a mother...

Balloon I think the problem is that because she feels so awful about not having children, mothers should "give it a break" and stop complaining about PND and other stresses of being a parent. Like I said, I can totally understand her hurt but telling others to shut up because of her situation is just childish.

no, sorry. This really annoys me. That people think they can tell other people not to complain because they are having difficulties. It'a all a bit 'children are starving in Africa'.

I have experienced infertility and had IVF but I think it's ridiculous to expect other people not to have a moan about parenting and not to understand it's nothing personal. I was told I shouldn't complain about morning sickness given the journey I had to get pregnant, but I think that's bollox. I can understand people feeling sensitive but having to winge about it in the national press - stupid.

on the other hand I really do feel for her RE her not having kids, and the circumstances which led to that. IT's horrible and hard. I hope that she seeks some kind of counselling because she needs to find a way to get past the depression it has so obviously caused her. I wonder if writing this article helped her.

I wasn't too impressed with her calling a baby a prize, and claiming that mothers were top of the tree. Are those her real issues with it - perceived status?

Dunno, I've been disabled since having kids, become a single mum and had to deal with various challenges that all of that incurs. Don't really like being told to consider myself lucky I have kids, because of course I thank goodness that they are here and have no real health problems, but that doesn't mean that my life isn't difficult in any way.

I had a toddler and did a pregnancy in a wheelchair on my own. I cope with chronic pain and operations on my own. I have a DD with behavioural issues and sometimes I get annoyed at normal childish behaviour because I can't just deal with it as normal due to my problems. I want to cry on a regular basis because my DD has a father who hasn't seen her since she was born and who doesn't give a crap about her, and she wants to know what is up with her.

Why should all my problems be invalidated because someone else has different problems? I would be compassionate and not moan TO someone who specifically had her issues to avoid upsetting her. Not being able to have children must be heart rending, but motherhood brings with it it's own unique issues too.

"I will never be pregnant, never be protected by the father of my child, never be loved as the mother of his child, never love like you love, and never be loved as you're loved. I will never mean as much to anyone as you do."

It's this bit of the article that gets me. The first three things she lists are about her, nothing about the child at all. It's all about how she feels and she doesn't seem to consider that the child she wants would need her a lot more that she needed it. It all about how much she^ means to other people which is a bit bizarre. She seems to think having a baby would make her more special and wanted which is completely the wrong reason to have one.

DuelingFanjo, I've had the voice of my grandmother saying that very same 'starving children' phrase in my head since I read the article!

I can completely understand where she is coming from I've struggled to conceive for the last 2 years (aged 30). I think it is more that people should have a bit more tact and sympathy. Countless people have given me the "oh you don't want to leave it too late" line and the temptation to shout "I'm fecking trying!" in their face is huge!

CaveMum that's different though. You are acting on a strong desire at a sensible age and are perfectly within your rights to thump someone who says that!

She's also a bit mad if she thinks that motherhood makes a woman automatically special to a man. Reading the relationships board here would soon disabuse her of that idea.

I agree Nyac, it's almost as if she thinks that getting pregnant would suddenly make a man cherish her and adore her and raise her status in society. A few months of being knackered, covered in sick and arguing with her partner over nightfeeds/housework would soon cure her of that notion!