"Mothers, stop moaning!" Guardian article directed partly at MNers

[MrsJamin]

here

What do we think? Is she justified?

Personally, I can see her perspective, and utterly empathise, but I still think that we have the right to discuss our parenthood problems on MN, even if she doesn't believe that mothers ever have the right to have problems or discuss them. She is expecting wrath from us, so let's surprise her shall we?

l think it is a very well written article and very moving and l can to a degree understand her overwhelming sadness and anger.
But - l dont know - its a bit like saying people with arthritis should never ever complain because there are people out there with terminal illness.

I feel very sorry for her and I know without doubt I would have been devastated had I not had children. So I sympathise.

But I DO object to her complaining about mothers talking to each other and offering support on a parenting site.

There's a mother at my DD1s pre school with the exact age gap between her DC as I have between mine. I was chatting to her last week about the challengse of the age gap at the moment, how I feel I'm always letting one of them down. Now I wouldn't dream of moaning about all that to someone who couldn't have children. But why shouldn't I be able to get moral support from someone else in the same situation?

I really resent the shut up and get on with it attitude she's espousing. It's exactly the kind of attitude that has contributed to piss-poor maternity services in this country and a lack of support for women who are giving birth and learning to breastfeed in challenging circumstances.

I also think it's laughable she thinks mothers have some kind of respect bestowed on them purely by being mothers. Mothers are slammed if they work, slammed if they stay at home.

I'mjustsaying

I thought that after

I agree wholeheartedly with what she said about being disappointed with a child's gender though.

people who have fears about having a certain gender dont DECIDE to feel that way, its rooted in all sorts of things. Its not like anyone woke up one day and thought, y'know what, I have it all, I don't mind if I have a boy or girl, I think I'll be a spoilt brat and chose one! no! it is not about being spoilt it is about fear of the kind of PARENT you will be to a child of a sex which you never imagined yourself parenting

Now is it not better to acknowledge the feeling, open up and talk about it and WORK THROUGH IT before the child is born than to bury it and carry it under the surface throughout the child's life?

"it is about fear of the kind of PARENT you will be to a child of a sex which you never imagined yourself parenting"

I think this is why I haven't got much time for it. Why imagine one over the other? It's a 50/50 thing.

She is entitled to complain if people are droning onto her about their kids/being pregnant when they know she can't have any. Some people never seem to understand the concept of there being a 'wrong audience'.

But she's complaining about people in general chatting/complaining/moaning about children which is entirely different.

I used to hate it when people went on about how tired they were listening to their child talking all the time, and how hard it was. BUt there's a difference between someone saying that generally - for example on a thread on here,or in a newspaper article and someone saying that directly to me. Someone saying that directly to me was being a bit dozy/insensitive. But that doesn't mean they shouldn't say it on or to someone else.

I admitted my preference (and fears) when pregnant with DS1, they were real fears, I got people jumping off TTC threads onto pregnancy threads to give me $hit about it! but also got private messages from others who had the same real fears about not being able to be a good parent to one or other sex, but felt they couldn't talk to ANYONE about it because they'll always be some numpty who'll make the massive jump from that to us not being grateful about being pregnant in the first case - there really is no relationship between the two

Now after being very brave open despite the slatings the first time round I've had the chance to talk it through with others who feel the same, and am now TTCing no 2 and I honestly feel ready and able to parent either sex, thanks to the long chats I've had with others who felt the same who helped me explore or common reasons for having a preference

"It's our website and we'll whinge if we want to?"

Treefutom, didn't you ever have motherhood fantasies? did they not follow a theme?

some people's mental picture shows always involve big families, or two siblings playing together, or three children, or one child..

mine was boys, If I saw a family out with girls I didn't think twice about it, if I saw a family out with boys I imagined that being me and DH one day. I never had an afinity with little girls, didn't really bond with friend's little girls easily, but with boys - it just happened, I didn't have to try. I did TRY with girls but it was hard work.

It wasn't a conscious thing, I didn't DECIDE to think that way, I know its 50/50 that you can get either when you get pregnant ffs!

There's a great book by George Mikes called "How to be an alien" where he descibes having lunch with a Holocaust survivor shortly after the end of the war. The chap recalls the horror and misery and terror of the camp he was in and tells the author he will never complain about the mundane every day stuff, because he is just so grateful to be alive.

The story comtinues when Mikes meets him a few years later, again for lunch, and arrives at the restaurant to overhear his friend causing a huge scene in a posh restaurant because he is unhappy with the table he has been given, it's too near the loos, he wants a better table. And he starts saying, "I survived the Holcaust and you want me to eat lunch near the toilets!"

Which is to say, that everyone, everyone, everyone should be grateful for something in their lives (children if they have them, survival of the Holocaust if they have) and yet everyone, evyone, everyone complains about small injustices, small slights, small annoyances.....because we are human.

I am amazed the writer of this piece in The Guardian has not figured that one out.

Another thing l noticed was she listed as an added distress to her situation never feeling protected and loved as the mother of her husbands children. Well not every mother gets that - some dads scoot off before the child is even born or soon after and dont want to be involved which in itself is heartbreaking. Some of us - like me - have our children at a young age with completely the wrong man my first husband was an abusive twat and then meet the 'right one' later in life when it's too late to have DCs. So l and many other mothers have that in common with her - that we will never feel loved or protected by the man we love as the mother of his children. Not saying that's just as bad as not having children btw - but just saying

it goes way back,

I was an only child, if I imagined having a sibling I'ld always imagine a little brother, never a little sister.

Please don't FFS me just because I can't relate to what you're saying at all. No, I didn't imagine my family being a certain way. I didn't think I could only parent one sex and not the other. I don't think of parenting a girl as being a completely separate endeavour to parenting a boy so I don't particularly agree with what you're saying there anyway.

Either way - feel free to moan with like-minded people, I just think the author of the article is right to be cross with the scenarios mentioned.

I can't imagine how horrible it must be to know for certain you can't have a baby although surely most women realise their clock is ticking?

I'm sorry to say I found the tone a little Liz Jones-style 'poor me' writing at times. Surely everyone has the right to a little niggle? With the exception of the gender lady who really shouldn't niggle at someone so obviously upset at being childless.

The Liz Jonesishness kicked in about midway:
"Of course being a mum has its difficulties ? but they are finite and surmountable." I find this statement incredibly glib- and I'm not even a mum yet. For all her sensitivity of what is said to her could she repeat that quote to a knackered mum of a disabled child? Or my friend whose little boy needs tests for his heart?

"So raising a child is expensive? So is being single and living alone." This line must be a great comfort to someone who can't afford to feed and house their kids- remember it's not "insurmountable"!

Perhaps had she had kids she'd feel differently and write about the very same niggles. Her pronciples certainly changed when she met a married man she likes: www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1246592/I-said-I-hated-women-slept-married-men--did-I-mistress.html

I felt a great deal of sympathy reading this article, until I got to the end section. I was working on the assumption that the author had some form of infertility or had experienced some sort of trauma to engender such sad, bitter feelings. To then discover that, no, her bitterness against mothers is down to her having faffed about until basic biology meant she couldn't conceive = sympathy fail.

I could well have ended up in her situation, as a picky bugger myself, but I would have hoped that the pain of not having kids would not have resulted in such bile against people who had! Eg there is a lot of joy to be had in being an aunt and you make of it what you will. I was going to be the fun aunt who bought inappropriate presents, took them shopping for glamourous things, there for cuddles but not teething or pooey nappies...

It would still have caused me a massive amount of grief and depression, and I hope the author finds her way through this somehow.

She is missing one very important thing here. The price we pay for that love.

I knew the moment my son was born that I would have to pay a price for the intense love I had for him. I would have to leave him one day. Don't get me wrong, I wasn't depressed or navel gazing all the time. I was just aware that nothing that wonderful comes without pain. I knew I'd have to stay alive as long as possible, preferably forever, to be with him. If I was to avoid the unnatural horror of losing him before I died, I'd go before him and he would have to grieve me.

Everything has a price and that's the price we pay as mothers. I think it's surprising we don't moan more really, knowing we will be parted from these precious children.

I have massive sympathy for her because she could have written how I feel at the moment.

Mumsnet doesn't just contain people who have children, there is also a whole sections for Conception and Infertility.

The way she may have written things may upset people and others may see her as self-indulgent, but it is a massive deal to her, and to other people who may be in the same situation.

I don't think anyone would doubt that it's an incredibly painful experience for her. Not feel sympathy It's the idea that everyone who has children has a rosy life and isn't allowed to complain about anything that is bonkers.

Totally get where she us coming from, have two ivf children, one was ill as a baby and is now well. Can't get over my luck at having two healthy children. Doesn't mean I don't moan about sleeplessness or mundanity but compared to infertility they are nothing.

Tree I didn't ffs you because you don't relate, I ffsed you because you INFORMED me that it's 50/50 whether you get a boy or a girl - that was patronising.

Good God, she is a dreadful writer! Definitely from the Liz Jones 'spew out any old guff about me, me, me' school of hack.

That is very sad for that woman, but being a parent can be hard too.
We all know it.

Having children isn't always easy, is it. Being a parent is not just cuddling up a lovely teeeeny baby.

Parents have every right to moan about their life, like any other category of people.

I was adopted by my Mum and Dad many years ago now,my darling Mum has had a shit few months culminating with a stroke in January.

I live three hours drive from her and have been here in my old hometown with her for longer this year than i have been at home.

I am dreading losing her but i know it's possibly not far off.

I know she loves me unconditionally more than anyone will ever love me,even though i have a fantastic partner of 26 years and three DC.

But she did tell me once that the early years were hard and she had an understanding of Mothers who found it hard to cope.

But i am her daughter and i will do anything to make her last years happy and stress free.