Has there been no justice for Trayvon Martin because he was black?

[chewchewmeaw]

www.channel4.com/news/trayvon...orge-zimmerman

I'm inclined to think things might be different if the roles were reversed.

"MQ, the fact that Trayvon was merely punching him and not pumping him full of lead meant he should have concluded that the only weapon Trayvon had was his fists. To respond by shooting at close range was use of force disproportionate to the threat and guaranteed to kill."

Have to agree to disagree there. The presence of a gun on Trayvons part would be irrelevant to me (if Zimmermans account is correct), if someone has gained a position of control and is beating you about the head and hitting your head off the concrete that would pose a legitimate threat to your life or safety in my books and as such you would be allowed to protect yourself.
You can quite easily kill someone with just your hands in that manner, and if you are the victim of the attack and you feel your life is endanger then the taking of your attackers life would be proportional and I believe there'd be a solid argument in support of that.

'You can quite easily kill someone with just your hands in that manner, and if you are the victim of the attack and you feel your life is endanger then the taking of your attackers life would be proportional and I believe there'd be a solid argument in support of that'

people do get beaten up like that regularly in the UK but luckily, with the laws here against carrying guns, "the taking of your attackers life would be proportional" doesn't apply here

jesus!

how can Z claim self defence?

He was following Trayvon...surely Trayvon was the one frightened and acting in self-defence (if he even did attack Zimmerman)?

Can you be arrested in florida if it was self-defence of self-defence?

Its obvious Z is racist fromthe start, when he thinks a 17 year old lad walking back from the shops with sweets and pop is 'suspicious'

It is unclear whether he was following him at the time office the confrontation

sorry but yes it does.
If someone is beating you in that manner and you were in fear for your life and struck them back in a way which meant they were fatally wounded (lets say by grabbing a kitchen knife if you were being beaten in your home or a brick if it's happening in the street) then you would still be available to avail of a defence of self-defence.
The fact that we don't have guns make it far less likely that minor fights escalate into killings or that people are less likely to be in a position to shoot someone who pisses them off, but if you are being attacked in a manner which means your life is endanger then the necessary use of force which resulted in the death of your attacker would be lawful.
in other words if you are being attacked such as that your life is in danger then "he taking of your attackers life would be proportional"

"how can Z claim self defence?

He was following Trayvon...surely Trayvon was the one frightened and acting in self-defence (if he even did attack Zimmerman)?"

depends on how the events fully unfolded. My contention is only that if Zimmermans account is fully true then it the fact that he used a gun would not automatically preclude him from a defence of "self-defence"
If as others claim he was the initial agressor etc. then I'd imagine there's a similar law as there is over here that you can't self-induce self-defence. i.e. you can't instigate a confrontation just to claim self-defence.

Im thinking that even if Trayvon did hit Zimmerman first....that could be considered reasonable if the guy had been following him....attack being a good form of defence/element of suprise

Its a course of action I would definitely consider if I was being followed and I was scared

Could do but dont be surprised if they stand their ground and shoot you.

Yes I am fucking angry too. When is this shit gonna stop?!!

Sad, even with Obama (tho he is considered black, he has a white mum), just shows how far they DIDN'T get...yet.

But this could be the catalyst.

Actually, probably not, just having read that you can donate to KKK (KluKluxKlan) with your credit card but NOT WIKIPEDIA!!!

Obama is considered black, because he identifies himself as black

they migt chicken-but could they claim self-defence?

Trayvon,isnt here to say he acted in self-defence

They could yes, has happened several times. A very stupid law.

You obviously can't just punch someone in the face for following you, otherwise chugggers would never make any money.

Guns being legal, and that whatsit? Stand your ground law? Turns it into a really strange feeling situation

What's the history of 'stand your ground'?

Police surveillance of Zimmerman has been released. This is from the evening that Trayvon Martin was murdered. Considering Zimmerman and his supporters claimed his nose had been broken, and the back of his head was bleeding, he looks in good shape here...

meh tbh that video wouldn't add much for me either way. It's a surveillance tape from a bit of a distance and it doesn't exactly focus on anywhere which Zimmerman claims he was hurt.
No way of telling if his nose is broken in that video and as he was seen to by paramedics at the scene there could be very good reason why there's no blood.

Not saying he isn't making the whole thing up, just that I don't think that video is very helpful to support either argument.

\link{http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57401619-504083/author-of-stand-your-ground-law-george-zimmerman-should-probably-be-arrested-for-killing-trayvon-martin/\author of "Stand your ground" law says Zimmerman can't claim self-defence}

'It is the fact that Zimmerman ignored the 911 operator's advice not to follow Martin that former Sen. Peaden says disqualifies him from claiming self-defense under the law.
"The guy lost his defense right then," Peaden told the Miami Herald. "When he said 'I'm following him,' he lost his defense."
Rep. Dennis Baxley, Peaden's co-sponsor in the Florida House, agrees with his former colleague, telling the newspaper that the law does not license neighborhood watch or others who feel "like they have the authority to pursue and confront people. That is aggravating an incident right there."'

I dont think he is claiming he stood his ground, his claim is he was returning to to his vehicle mechanism when martin approached him.

"Stand your ground" is what the self-defence law is called (aka "shoot first" )

yes, I know he claims that now. the girlfriend's account completely contradicts him though.

chicken are you Zimmermans mum?

He apparently refused the offer to go to the ER and have his alleged injuries taken care of. He said he would go the next morning. If he went, there would be a medical report about whatever cuts he had.

He is claiming protection from prosecution under the stand your ground statute, claiming tat Trayvon attacked him from behind and that he 'stood his ground' and shot him in self defence.

(And it seems that Reps. Peaden and Baxley share my perception of Zimmerman as a gung ho fantasist who felt he had authority that he did not in fact possess.)

\link{http://abcnews.go.com/US/video/george-zimmerman-police-surveillance-16024475\clear view of back of Zimmerman's head at 0.57} - absolutely no sign of injury (good of him to have nice short crewcut so we can see that clearly)

\link{http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/03/29/george-zimmerman-video-outrage-where-are-injuries-from-travyon-fight.html\this Daily Beast report} sums up the recent backlash against Trayvon very well

also 'The official police report did, after all, say of Zimmerman that ?his back appeared to be wet and was covered in grass, as if he had been laying on his back on the ground. Zimmerman was also bleeding from the nose and the back of the head.? The disconnect between this report and the footage screams for an explanation.'

First site article I have seen videos indicating locations of incidents:

www.wagist.com/2012/dan-linehan/evidence-that-trayvon-martin-doubled-back

From the Christian Science Monitor:

'The Orlando Sentinel newspaper reported Saturday that experts it contacted could not confirm that it was Martin?s cry because they had no sample of the teen?s voice to compare.

But using a sample of Zimmerman?s voice, they confidently eliminated Zimmerman as the one crying out in distress.

?Tom Owen, forensic consultant for Owen Forensic Services LLC and chair emeritus for the American Board of Recorded Evidence, used voice identification software to rule out Zimmerman,? the newspaper reported. ?Another expert contacted by the Sentinel, utilizing different techniques, came to the same conclusion.?

Using software called Easy Voice Biometrics, Mr. Owen compared Zimmerman's voice to the 911 call screams.

The software returned a 48 percent match, the newspaper reported ? far less than the 90 percent positive match that would be expected with audio of that quality.

"As a result of that, you can say with reasonable scientific certainty that it's not Zimmerman," Owen said.

Ed Primeau, a Michigan-based audio engineer and forensics expert, relied on audio enhancement and human analysis based on forensic experience to come to the same conclusion.'

So, NOW have they arrested Zimmerman???

im not sure how it is relevant whether Trayvon doubled back or not?

seems perfectly reasonable to ask someone why they are following you- especially as he was followed back to the house where he was staying