Has there been no justice for Trayvon Martin because he was black?

[chewchewmeaw]

www.channel4.com/news/trayvon...orge-zimmerman

I'm inclined to think things might be different if the roles were reversed.

Crazily, I'd like to see all the fact of this case first before coming to any conclusions.
I'm not saying that there haven't been some terrible decisions taken, but I hope at least there will be a robust investigation so the truth can be uncovered. I can't stand trial by media.
After all, last week there was a piece in the Guardian about how the gunman in France was probably a racist white supremacist...
If we jump to conclusions and demand answers too quickly there will be no justice for Trayvon either.

Naps:

No.self defense is not to be ascertained by a court of law. Florida state law prohibits arresting a suspect who claims self defence and awards damages, attorney costs and loss of income if they wrongfully arrest someone defending themselves.

Zimmerman wad detained at the scene and questioned and found no reason to disbeleive him.are you suggesting we abandon the law? Anar-keee!

There is contradictory evidence on both sides.

Zimmerman lived in a community where there had been break ins a d a shooting.

Allow allow the facts to come out before organising your hysterical lynch mob. The total rush to judge is responsible for the death threats and bounty put on Zimmerman but the nation of islam, black panthers and professional race baiter spike lee publishing the wrong address.

'Professional race-baiter Spike Lee'? What an unfair and grossly misleading comment, URallchickenlentil I take it you don't know much about Spike Lee's politics, then?

I agree that we do need to wait for all the facts to come out before we make big judgements on this case. However, Trayvon Martin's death has sparked a real wave of anger and concern from African-Americans, particularly in Florida, which is obviously about much more than Trayvon's death. It doesnt take a genius to work that out.

Indeed people are angry, but many based kn erroneous facts and misleading media. Why is the picture of Martin that of him as a youngster not as he was a month ago. Why are they raking up dirt on Zimmerman as proof that he is guilt without giving Martin the same degree of scrutiny?

They are starting to with a conclusion and demanding the law should be overturned to give them the result they want.

So what if people are angry? The law should be followed. Abuses and incompetence pointed out and corrective action taken.

Trademarking tratvons name and disseminating innocent peoples names will not bring justice.

Exactly URallchicken. Well put.

Trial by media using images and soundbites and half examined facts could inflame the situation. The shooting of Mark Duggan is proof of this. What do people want? A well considered investigation or a riot like the one last summer which lead to an innocent man being killed, destruction of local businesses and a poor student having his jaw broken - all because people demand immediate answers.

Justice sometimes takes longer than 'the people' demand.

The trial of Mark Duggan is proof of nothing more than that the police lied...

I agree that we should allow the courts to do their work and I am absolutely opposed to trial by media, but I also recognise that black men are hugely disadvantaged in the American justice system and that people are angry about that. They are two issues, tangled up in this one case.

That is all.

Hang on, isn't the inquiry about Mark Duggan ongoing? (What trial are you talking about. I'm not asking that in a confrontational way, maybe I've missed something?) So police lying is speculative at best. Again, I'd rather know the facts rather than opinion.

And yes, black men in America are disadvantaged by the system. But again, if this anger is whipped up to the point where riots happen, it's only going to damage damaged communities further. That's what I find frightening.

Black men are disadvantaged but it is not legal to arrest a defendant claiming self defense who presents injuries consistent with their account.

The law should be a dispassionate search for the truth,what is happening is conflating many issues and us dangerous.

An elderly woman is receiveing death threats because spike lee gave out the wrong address. There is a 10kretail bounty on a man who is innocent until proven guilty. When voice analysis on the tapes is performed there may be reason to charge Zimmerman. I believe its he is being hounded because he is being portrayed as white.

Many of the 'facts' being bandied about are wrong. People are stating the events in the wring order and failing to mention parts of the 911' call. I was watching the young turns and they edited out parts of the call.the worst part is when the despatcher says we dont need you to follow him he says ok but they cut and end the call there rather than playing the next few minutes where he clearly has not pursued him and says oh crap I need to get outs here I dont know where he is.

they cut and end the call there rather than playing the next few minutes where he clearly has not pursued him and says oh crap I need to get outs here I dont know where he is

link to that, please

'After he departs from his truck to pursue Martin, Zimmerman's breathing is audibly labored. The operator hears that, and asks, "Are you following him?" Zimmerman replies, "Yep." The operator responds: "We don't need you to do that." This would seemingly have been another natural opportunity for Zimmerman to say, "I'm a neighborhood watch volunteer." Instead, he softly says, "OK." Then, the continued sound of his breathing suggests he was still pursuing Martin.
Seventh, Zimmerman was willing to report his name and phone number, but strangely stopped short when asked for his address. Asked if he lived in the area, he again said nothing of his neighborhood watch role. He gave part of his address, and then stopped. He said, "Oh, crap, I don't want to give it out loud, I don't know where this kid is at " Instead, he tells the operator to have the police who arrive on the scene to "call me and I'll tell them where I'm at."'

from \link{http://www.bnd.com/2012/03/28/2118685/michael-smerconish-analyzing-911.html\bnd.com}

but we already knew he lost sight of Trayvon - the girlfriend's story backs that up. Trayvon got away from Zimmerman, then Zimmerman spotted him & went after him again.

forensics would show if Trayvon was shot from below. was he?

'

Surely that can't be right mathsanxiety shock

Obviously the language used gives a clear indication of Mr Zimmerman's frame of mind at the time of the shooting but supposing he'd said nothing? How can it be OK for him to gun somebody down just for walking along the street?'

Hate crimes are prosecuted. Self defence crimes may not be, and deciding to prosecute an alleged self defence crime is where all sorts of mind sets and history and attitudes come in. The element of a racist/hate crime will be balanced against the self defence element. The hate crime element trumps the self defence element.

Using a racist term for someone, going against the advice of the 911 operator and following Trayvon, and then shooting him dead => prosecution.

Not using a racist term, going against the advice of the 911 operator and following Trayvon, and then shooting him dead => grey area with room to maneuver for the legal defence, because of the self defence element.

To me, the fact that he deliberately went after Trayvon, with a gun, and disregarded the operator => bloodthirst at the very least. But that may not be the way it is seen in Florida.

URall, you can say the law is the law all you like, or a dispassionate search for truth, but in fact the law is enforced by people who do not examine their assumptions, just as it appears Zimmerman didn't examine his assumptions. Zimmerman had a few criminal justice courses under his belt and wanted to joint he police. Zimmerman, the son of a magistrate, thought it was fine to go after someone with a gun, essentially to take the law into his own hands and disregard the 911 operator. The law is always enforced in a specific cultural context. You can't get away from the effect of that culture.

And URall, until you are in possession of all the facts and know exactly where the media are all going wrong, you can't assume you know what you are talking about either. If there is something everyone has missed here, some information that you are privy to that would change the public perception of this, you should share it with the relevant authorities.

There can be no dispassionate search for truth when the word of one man who is something of a law enforcement insider is taken as the truth, and the other one is dead.

The furore is about the assumption that the word of a white man with a gun is enough when a black youth lies dead of a gunshot wound. The anger comes from the fact that Trayvon's body was just picked up from the place where he fell and taken to the morgue and left there, classified as John Doe, after his mother reported him missing. Easy come, easy go when it comes to the lives of young black men. Why make an effort to find a missing black boy? Police had his phone -- they did not contact the numbers listed there. Police never asked neighbours if they recognised the body. Police assumed he was the interloper up to no good that Zimmerman said he was.

Here is some sanity from The Atlantic Monthly.

This is the stuff of nightmares.

Ponders:
He lives in a house not an apartment at 1950. Would you also like his phone number?he gave that as well.he was in front of an address he did not know by a cut through. I dont know how you failed to hear this.

His breathing wasn't laboured it was wind as he walked and stopped when he said ok just as loudly as the rest of the conversation.

It is abundantly clear that Zimmerman went after Trayvon. He admitted as much to the operator.

I have reported your post because of the disgraceful racial slur you saw fit to use here. I think you have shown your true colours here.

Having heard the tape I do know what is on it so I so know when they crop it and lie about the content.

Why are they using years old pictures of trayvon cute as a button rather than a more recent one and and Zimmerman in custody rather than in a suit.

What white man? Barrack obama? He has one white parent is he white?

Is all this leaked information and spin not prejudiceing a fair trial.

The anger is way beyond that, most people on the million goodies march dont know half of the accusations. Its just black vs white.

His twitter name

It is very clear URall, that you are nothing more than an apologist for the right of white people to kill black people.

Zimmerman is not white

And Trayvon, being an African American, was probably not entirely 'black', but he was blacker than Zimmerman. And sadly, that is what matters.

Zimmerman is a murderer he should be arrested and tried

For what though?

Its illegal to arrest him unless they have probable cause., that will need more investigation such as the voice analysis as to who was screaming. It will take time but will offer far better evidence than all the various anonymous witnesses accounts.

If it were a hispanuc kid shot by a white guy there would still be the same thing. The race thing is clouding the issue and leading to smears in both sides which are totally irrelevant, emotional manipulation. Criminal cases should be based on facts not feelings or suspicions.

'Criminal cases should be based on facts not feelings or suspicions.'

Yes they should, and that is why Zimmerman should have been arrested and charged.

"He wasn't arrested due to Florida state law, it is illegal to arrest someone who.has been acting in self defense and the police are liable to be sued if they detain someone in this manner."

If that is honestly the law in Florida - shoot somebody and be on your way - the US is no better than any of the 'less civilised' nations it 'protects'. This is the kind of thing you would expect to hear about in South Africa under Botha. In civilised legal systems, a policeman shooting a known criminal in the shoulder would have been subject to more investigation than Zimmerman.

Of course we don't know all the facts. However, you can't pretend that a justice system that allows a teenager with a mobile phone to lie un-identifed in a morgue for 3 days is functioning correctly.

That's the Florida Keys added to my list of trouble spots of the world I won't be visiting if that is honestly how they do things.

It is illegal to arrest someone under Florida state law who claims self defense. On arrival his gun was taken, he was cuffed and questioned. Charges may ne brought as evidence is clarified.
You claerly dont like this man who.has black family members and recently mentored a black kid. You have called him a psycho ans said he had a blood-lust.

But he can't be arrested because martin was black, yet.