Has there been no justice for Trayvon Martin because he was black?

[chewchewmeaw]

www.channel4.com/news/trayvon...orge-zimmerman

I'm inclined to think things might be different if the roles were reversed.

I know very little about Zimmerman. I have no clue whether he is mentally unstable or racist.

It may be illegal to arrest somebody in Florida who claims self defense (in which case how do they ever arrest anybody - what is this place - the OK Corral?) However, it certainly isn't illegal to contact the next of kin when you come across a dead body.

I think the problem is not whether Zimmerman is racist or not, but that a madman felt free to operate in a racist system.

Is that genuinely the legal situation in Florida, Urall? You can kill someone, claim self-defense and then walk away without having to prove your self-defense claim in court through a witness statement, evidence of your opponent being lethally armed or any other convincing evidence?

If that's the case then Florida is in a state of 'anar-kee' as you term it. That means no-one is safe. You could have a minor altercation with a person over e.g. a parking space and end up dead with your killer just walking away. That's not civilized rule of law and order, it's an invitation to chaos and social breakdown.

If a human being is killed, no matter what circumstances, a thorough investigation has to be carried out, not just a casual 'yeah we checked it out and it seems OK'.

URallchickenlentil I dont know how you failed to hear this

I haven't heard anything - what I quoted was clearly from print

I asked you to link to the 911 call you quoted, but until you do none of us can judge

mathanxiety, I think "nolimitnigga" is alleged to be Trayvon's FB nickname

(or twitter)

They can be detained and questioned, I think being injured helps as does obvious common sense I.e. dead person is not a child or restrained.

The difference is not great, if he had been arrested he would be bailed and would still not be in prison yet.he could still be arrested.

Americas self defense laws are insane, castle doctrine, stand your ground as is allowing civilians to walk around with concealed weapons.

Youtube Zimmerman 911in call full. Compare the editing to clips from the young turks.

I don't like a man who disregarded the order of the 911 operator and pursued a teenager, not even recognising a neighbour or wondering if he could possibly have a perfect right to be there before he indulged in his bloodlust and his law enforcement fantasy. You are right there.

And I don't have much respect for a system that allows a man who assaulted a police officer (arrest closed) and a girlfriend (again case closed) to get a concealed carry permit or become a neighbourhood watch captain, or a system that apparently had no way of flagging a loose cannon who made 46 calls to 911 about suspicious people in the neighbourhood in the run-up to this incident. The attitude behind this system privileges the articulate white person with connections over the assumption that citizens are bound to hold sacred that Trayvon was innocent until proven guilty, because they are also supposed to serve on juries when required. Zimmerman wasn't going to allow Trayvon the benefit of the doubt and apparently the law in Florida backs him up.

'Treyvon was a thrice excluded XYZ...' implies that URall agreed with this derogatory term, and whether Treyvon used the term himself ironically or for whatever reason makes no difference to the fact that it is derogatory, has been condemned, and is associated with white supremacy. Absent any disclaimer from URall, I have to assume s/he has no objection to use of the term.

Wrt 1950sHousewife's comment So police lying is speculative at best. about the Duggan shooting, the police have been proved to be lying. The police said they opened fire after they were shot at by Mark Duggan. Not only were there no guns found in the minicab in which he was basically executed, the bullet recovered from the officer's radio came from a police gun. When officers are investigated for killing members of the public they must ban the current practise of allowing them to collude with each other 'to get the story straight'.

His breathing wasn't laboured it was wind as he walked and stopped when he said ok just as loudly as the rest of the conversation

it was not wind! I'm listening on youtube - you can tell from the voice that Zimmerman took off after him & the police despatcher realises that - he's running (or jogging) after him, hence the noise & him panting.

you've made no case in favour of Zimmerman, URallchickenlentil

He was not given an order.
if he had he does not have to listen to the telephonist.
We do not know who approached who.
From the 911we heard martin was a stopped looking at Zimmerman, walked towards him, ran away. Zimmerman walked in the direction he left in but was not in sight. The operator said he did not need to follow him. He stopped.
The altercation did not occur at this time
Allegedly he returned to his car and wad approached by martin who attacked him.allegedly.

Noone knows what Zimmerman fantasises about. There are neighbours who describe as a stand up guy who did a lot for the community who had seen a rise in burglarlys and a shooting. He claims martin had his hand in his waistband, he claimed he had something in his hand.mooned knows anything, why are 911you tapes even being released?

Whatever martin and Zimmerman did in the past is irrelevant. Charges should only be brought in relation to what occurred that night which is not yet clear.

You made many claims about who Zimmerman is and what his motivations are based on one sided media caricature of half truths and information that is irrelevant.there is another side providing titilating snippets speculating as to why martinis was in athe neighbourhood with many burglaries and portrayingthe him ina a particular light.Also irrelevent.

As martin is innocent until proven guilty so is Zimmerman. All that matters is who attacked who or, because self defence is only lawful if they did not begin the violence.

I included martins username to show what slants are being put on the story by including non related factoids as has been pointed out in Zimmermans past. I assumed the tag would be recognised from #dueprocess and receiving a large amount of coverage online. Maybe should change that but couldn't find an edit function?

Its not being quotedto be racist but trying to portray martin as involved in gang culture with a propensity to crime, the no_limit being as 'damning' apparently.

If you dont respect the system; fair enough, if you think the investigation is poor; you are probably right but for all the people baying for blood calling him a psycho racist vigilante with blood lust dont know enough to make that assessment and appear to have reached a conclusion with little knowledge because there is little knowledge to be known and a lot who are asserting what happened when have not even listened to the tapes ir know Zimmerman was a mentor to a black kid, there have been shootings and break ins in his community. Some are saying he is such huge mm fighter and martin is a short child because they only see pictures if him when he was a kid, such as on the petition.

He was not given an order. if he had he does not have to listen to the telephonist

he was told "we don't need you to do that" but he didn't have to "listen to" what the telephonist said?

there is a lot of relevant information available about Zimmerman's "neighbourhood watch" (so-called) history. whatever his own ethnic background, he clearly had issues with young black men in his patch

Ponders

The whole clip I watched was by user nizzyd.

At 2:08 shit he's running
Its at this point there is the wind noise. I think its wind not breath because its audible when Zimmerman says ' fucking coons' at 2:22

The 911 operator says we dont need you to do that at 2:26

He says he ran at 2:49 and the wind noise ceases at at 2:52 when he gives directions to his car.

This is not enough time to get out of breath and recover. By the time the call ends they have nit met.

Where they met and how when the killing occurred is not clear. Zimmerman claims martin approached him as he returned to his car. I think it was around 1minute later

It's not a telephonist. It's a 911 operator, and citizens are obliged to co-operate with 911 operators, provide adequate information (which Zimmerman refused to do despite numerous requests) and comply with instructions given by them because it is assumed that all citizens are interested in public safety and acknowledge that issues to do with public safety are best left in the hands of professionals. Zimmerman opted to indulge in the fantasy of lone defender of his little gated world and stymied the work of law enforcement in trying to respond to his call. The operator reminded him not to take the law into his own hands but Zimmerman ignored him.

His preoccupations/fantasies? He made iirc 46 calls about suspicious individuals in the neighbourhood. He was the neighbourhood watch captain. Neighbourhood watch captains organise neighbours, distribute information, liaise with police. He applied for and was granted a concealed weapons licence. He assaulted a police officer (hopefully you will believe this since it was the officer who brought the complaint) and his girlfriend (allegedly, and the two were involved in a war of injunctions subsequently). He took courses in criminal justice. Sounds to me like a man completely certain that he was right all the time and everyone else was wrong. He was so gung ho about his weapon and his rightness and possibly his immortality that he pursued a young man he was suspicious of even though if he had been a criminal there was a high probability that he would also have had a gun and it would be a toss up who shot whom, or what innocent bystanders would get hit by a stray bullet. A trigger happy fantasist who thought he would be the hero of the hour and catch an asshole, and show him what's what in other words.

Treyvon Martin was not considered innocent until proven guilty. He was tried and executed for the crime of being in a redneck gated community while black.

'All that matters is who attacked who or, because self defence is only lawful if they did not begin the violence.' No, that is not all that matters. For the purposes of being charged, what matters is whether any racist adjective or term was uttered by Zimmerman -- the law is right at least in this regard; it acknowledges, as you refuse to, that racial hatred exists and can motivate murder and other crimes. A hate crime charge, if brought, will trump the technicality of self defence, and that defence in and of itself will be highly questionable and dependent on what is revealed by either the many calls that were made during the incident or by witness accounts that may yet emerge.

Treyvon was 6 feet tall approx; Zimmerman is 5'8ish. Zimmerman had a large weight advantage, and he had a gun. Hence perhaps the heavy breathing as he ran after Treyvon, breathing so audibly heavy it aroused the suspicion of the Operator that he was following him.

iirc it wasn't 911, math - it was a non-emergency number

no idea what diff that makes to the behavioural obligation to the citizen making the call though

'Fucking coons' seals his fate imo.

psycho racist vigilante

There is clearly debate over whether Zimmerman was a racist (at least between his defence lawyers and the public).

However, I think its difficult to argue that his actions were sane, or that he wasn't taking the law into his own hands.

He was already in pursuit when the dispatcher said that.
It is not a legal order, he was breaking no law
I think thats because he was the community coordinator and conducted nightly patrols. In

It may be black men are easier to identify as strangers in a white area but I dont think that is proof he is racist, both he and his wife mentored black kids.he had black family members and has had one black friend stand up and say thats not the case.

But the only thing that matters is who was the aggressor.

'Fucking coons' seals his fate imo.

yes, imo too

It may be black men are easier to identify as strangers in a white area

I read somewhere earlier that in fact this community is only 49% white

he was the community coordinator and conducted nightly patrols

you know he wasn't an official registered neighbourhood watch co-ordinator?

\link{http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2012/0324/Who-is-George-Zimmerman-and-why-did-he-shoot-Trayvon-Martin\The organization was not registered with the national Neighborhood Watch program, but was set up with the assistance of the Sanford Police Department. Zimmerman initiated the program, according to Wendy Dorival, the department's volunteer coordinator}

'"Mr. Zimmerman was not acting outside the legal boundaries of Florida Statute by carrying his weapon when this incident occurred," Sanford Police Chief Bill Lee said recently. "He was in fact on a personal errand in his vehicle when he observed Mr. Martin in the community and called the Sanford Police Department."
The chief has also said Zimmerman had no legal duty to heed a dispatcher's warning to stay put instead of following Trayvon on foot. ( Chief Lee stepped down ?temporarily? this week after receiving a no-confidence vote from the Sanford City Council over his handling of the case )'

Yes but which faye. He cannot be arrested for self defence, it is against the law. That decision will go to a grand jury, he can still be charged with other crimes. He is not immune to prosecution.

the way the incident was handled by the local police stinks, URallchickenlentil. nobody can argue with that

As I understand it you do not need to register, it was set up in conjunction with sandford pd and was elected.?