Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

News

fatherhood ruined my marriage - twice

146 replies

harpsichordcarrier · 21/01/2006 09:06

from today's Guardian
what a total twonk

OP posts:
Groggymama · 21/01/2006 22:41

tosser

nooka · 21/01/2006 23:57

Well I'm going to dissent. Bearing in mind this guy is talking about his behaviour in the 70's, I don't think that his thinking is really that unusual, and I have talked to quite a few people with similar issues. My relationship with dh was definitely damaged by having children, although he absolutely adores them and is a great dad, and birthing together was very bad move for us. I have since talked to midwives about this, and been told that many men find it difficult, and the whole push to have dads always there can be problematic (yes of course they can say no, but who wouldn't feel very hurt to have their partner say that - for whatever reason?) Personally I think the problem is that on the whole new dads are not very supported, and don't talk to each other enough. Mums get to discuss this sort of stuff enough to know that a lot of their emotions are completely normal, and I think dads would adjust a great deal better if they could see they aren't alone in feeling displaced. Now I am not saying that the guy didn't behave badly, and the lack of comment about his own children is indeed telling. He probably is a wanker, but I do not think he is alone at all - certainly not for his generation, and probably not for this one either. The only thing I think is probably not an issue now so much is the not coping with the concept of a girl thing (and not because all men are "reconciled" to daughters with more notice!) because of the change in parenting that hopefully most guy's have now, so they don't believe that their dad's are the only option for them to copy - I certainly don't know many guy's who feel they have to "ape" their dads (any more than women who want to ape their mothers - terrible thought!!) Oh, and finally, although I doubt it was an issue for this guy, men can have PND too.

Meanoldmummy · 22/01/2006 00:03

I don't agree that men can have PND. It's a physiological impossibility. They can suffer from depression, and it can be related to the birth/fatherhood, but it is NOT PND.

LeftOverTurkey · 22/01/2006 00:15

No, he isn't alone in being a toss-pot, but don't think his age has anything to do with it. I and most of my friends are the same vintage and not a single one of the fathers went into a sulk, all were supportive as indeed they should be. Of course the child should always come first. The father is (allegedly) an adult and can take care of himself. If a father can't take the back seat for a while it is a poor show. Spoilt brat syndrome.

nooka · 22/01/2006 00:29

Meanoldmummy - yes of course you are right, it isn't PND - I just meant that it is recognised that a proportion of new fathers do experience depression (in a medical sence - not just feeling down). And Leftoverturkey, I don't disagree that it is childish to go off in a sulk, but all adults can be childish at times - and I do think that attitudes to fatherhood have changed a lot over this generation. My father (a bit older as I am the youngest in my family, but also in the seventies) certainly wasn't there for my birth or played a large part (or even a small part by all accounts!) in my early childhood, and I would say this was true for the majority of my contempories, which is very different to the new dads that I know now. Still - I'm glad that your experience was different!

SorenLorensen · 22/01/2006 00:34

And he was sitting on the chair backwards - straddling it - in the picture to accompany the article. Never trust a man who does that.

I thought the John Simpson piece was lovely too, elliot.

ednaferber · 22/01/2006 01:10

Valid feelings of a man who probably is not the only one. Bravo for honesty. More constructive comments may help to understand these feelings, rather than the singularity of a womans harship during this time. She of course is not the only person in the family adjusting to change.

Cabe · 22/01/2006 02:23

Sorry - I don't have any sympathy for this mans feelings on realising he had a daughter.
I have seen this shitty reaction for real... nasty bloke, infantile emotionally and violent when crossed. His dd is no longer with us (she was beautiful, a real angel), as you can imagine this man now uses his sob story to gain attention from anyone willing to listen - if only they knew

Janos · 22/01/2006 07:48

Valid feelings of a man who probably is not the only one. Bravo for honesty. More constructive comments may help to understand these feelings, rather than the singularity of a womans harship during this time. She of course is not the only person in the family adjusting to change

Oh yes, you're right. Poor man, I see it all now. Why, he's practically a saint for putting it up with it all.

snafu · 22/01/2006 08:48

Oh, please. Valid feelings? Give me a break.

Of course men have to adjust as well. And yes, sometimes they do get a little 'left behind' for a while. And fwiw I agree that there may well be an issue worth discussing around the whole 'fathers at the birth' thing, but that's another thread.

This self-serving twaddle is pure, unalloyed selfishness, however - a sulky, spoilt little brat throwing his toys out of his pram because he's shocked to discover he's no longer the centre of the universe. There is nothing 'valid' about this man's feelings of disappointment on having a girl, or of his taking refuge in work and knocking up other women, or whining because he's not getting enough at home. It's simply pathetic.

I hope to God his first child never gets to see what her father has said about her. Then again, I would imagine with a father like that, she's probably already well aware...

FairyMum · 22/01/2006 08:52

The problem is he isn't adjusting. You don't get time to adjust when you have a baby. You are given a newborn baby in your arms and that's it. Do mothers get time to adjust to the extent that they can ignore the baby until they feel ready for motherhood? These are immature rantings of a madman who will probably join fathers for justice at some point when he feels hard done-by when he doesn't get to see his children when they are older and a bit more fun.

Blandmum · 22/01/2006 08:56

Hmm, 'valid' to think that one gender is more important than the other. That is such and interesting way to describe it. I can think of a few different ways.

Aside from anything else, didn't the silly arse realise that there was a 50:50 chance that his offspring was going to be one of those 'disapointing' females? And didn't he know that it was all his silly old fault be generating those second rate female sperm. Sigh, poor little didums, he must have been so upset.

His thesis seems to be 'I'm unhappy, I have evey right to have all my desires satisfied, and so I will act whatever way I like' ie the thoughts of an emotionaly stunted teenager.

Thank god there are some real men out there, and that the world isn't populated by gutless wonders like this guy.

tigermoth · 22/01/2006 08:56

In the article it's unclear if this man planned to have either of his first two children. His first wife became pregnant soom after the marriage, then 'disaster' struck and his mistress become pregnant. I don't get the impression he planned for either child.

Now of course he should have been mature enough to take precautions. But perhaps he did. Perhaps the women told him they were on the pill and he trusted them. Then for whatever reason, the contraception failed. Perhaps one or both of those women wanted babies at all costs.

You can heap blame on him for not being a good father, but he might have been quite blameless in choosing to have those children. He might have made it clear to his wife and mistress he wanted no children. Fate or design overrode him. He wouldn't be the first man in his twenties to be avidly anti fatherhood. Yes, he should have made the best of it and supported his wife and later his mistress. There's no knowing if these women (presumably in their twenties too) really wanted to be a parent at that age, either.

He says in his thirties, he met his third wife, and she already had a daughter. He chose to have a family and it worked out.

For me this article is a very annoying one because I don't know all the facts. There are too many questions left hanging and IMO it's open to interpretation.

Blandmum · 22/01/2006 08:59

Tigermoth, as my old mother used to say to me 'If you don't want to go to Cardiff, don't get on the train'. If he was so unsure about having kids he should have been adult enough to use a condom. The choice was always his but he prefered to abrogate his responsibility to make the choice. If he felt that his first mariiage was wrecked , why not have a sterilisation?

expatinscotland · 22/01/2006 09:02

LOL @ the theory that men have PND. No, really, that is funny indeed, especially having had PND that made me suicidal.

Blandmum · 22/01/2006 09:04

Like the 'male menopause' LOL not!

intergalacticwalrus · 22/01/2006 09:09

I don't use this word v often, but that man is a total c**t. I thought exactly the same as you mb, if he wasn't "ready" for fatherhood, he should have been a man and used contraception, or at the very least discussed it with his wife. He probably felt put out by the fact that she didn't have time to starch his shirt collars or pair up his socks.

Our DS wasn't planned. My pregnancy was a bolt out of the blue. DP and I had only just moved in together, and we were out on the piss every night. As soon as I found out I was pregnant, DP was fantastic. I have suffered on and off from PND for the last 13 months, and DP has been very supportive. He is a great fater too. He does have his moments of sulkiness (but don't they all!!!)

Janos · 22/01/2006 09:19

I simply cannot summon up an iota of sympathy for this dreadful man. He hasn't even the compassion and sense to keep his mouth shut and spare his eldest daughter the pain of knowing that she was a disappointment to him in every way. How could anyone be so selfish?

Oh, and expat, I have to agree. Men do NOT suffer from PND. Depression, yes, PND NO.

Blandmum · 22/01/2006 09:21

IGW, please don't call the guy a c*nt

I like mine, and it is useful and productive, unlike some writers

flutterbee · 22/01/2006 09:33

I just can not understand what would make a mature adult want the whole world to read this.

I don't doubt for one minute that what he has written is the truth and thats fair enough some people are unable to see past the end of there own nose, they want what they want and if they can't get it at A they will go to B for it, but I just can not understand why he would want to hurt the feelings of his 2 biological children the way he will have done. I would be devistated if I ever heard my Dad saying something like that let alone putting it in print.

Feeling the way he felt is fine but dealing with it the way he did makes him a selfish a-hole, but then putting it in print that makes him a really nasty piece of work.

tigermoth · 22/01/2006 09:47

playing devils advocate - he might have used a condom - still not foolproof.

He could have had a sterilisation, but perhaps at that time (mid 70s) didn't know if it was reversable. I knew I didn't want a baby in my twenties so I took precuations but I would have stopped short of steralization. I was aware enough to realise my attutude to babies might change as I got older and I wanted to have the chance of having them later on.

And his comments against his two first children -for all we know, this could be common knowledge. Father and children could have talked it through and have moved on to have a strong, adult relationship. Some mothers don't like being a mother at first and don't bond with their babies to begin with - doesn't mean they are doomed to hate their children (and vica versa) forever.

expatinscotland · 22/01/2006 10:00

WHY the HELL would anyone be sterilised w/a view to 'is it reverseable'? Um, possibly not, that's why EVERY piece of literature you're given before the operation states that this is a permanent form of contraception.

So he may have been 'trapped' or had an accident - twice? No excuse to be a shit excuse for a human being, IMO. We're talking about babies here. Tiny, defenseless babies who are also his own flesh and blood.

Accidents happen. You buck up and do the decent thing. Well, if you're a decent person.

At the very least, you don't go spraffing about how much of a disappointment your kids are to you in a UK wide newspaper and pocket the money off it. Just let it lie and walk away like a person w/some level of humanity.

It's common knowledge that Princess Di had mental illness issues, but it's probably still painful to her kids to see her slated in the press for it.

Janos · 22/01/2006 10:03

"Feeling the way he felt is fine but dealing with it the way he did makes him a selfish a-hole, but then putting it in print that makes him a really nasty piece of work."

Exactly

tigermoth I do see your point, but I'm afraid he doesn't come across as being anything but utterly self absorbed. Goodness knows my father, much as I love him, was far from perfect but he would never do something like this.

tigermoth · 22/01/2006 10:17

But his children might not be a disappointment to him now, not at all. And they may be well aware of his views on their birth and have seen him change. Why assume the worst? Not saying yo may be right, just that I can see no evidence that any one version is correct.

Expatinscotland, you're are making a similar point to me regarding steralisation - say you're twentysomething, you're told steralisation will permanently stop you having children, but you feel your views on parenthood may mellow as you get older, then not good thinking to get it done. Should society force all twentysomething men to be steralised if they don't want to be fathers right there and then? I don't think so.

I am not saying anything this man did was 'good' just saying the article does not make a lot of issues clear.

tigermoth · 22/01/2006 10:20

really wish I could re-read the article to check exactly what he says and does not say, but the link won't work for me!