Shit, it's really kicking off in Egypt....

[headfairy]

watching reuters footage coming in, they've got tear gas and the police are shooting protesters now. Bloody terrifying!

"democracies can and will cause conflict"

And I am telling you that stepping in to stop ethnic cleansing is not "causing conflict".

Blimey it is spreading if the Jordan government is changed, power to the Tunisian and Egyptian people and their demo's!

"And I am telling you that stepping in to stop ethnic cleansing is not causing conflict"

Well I didn't want to say starting a war as war has certain legal meanings and many military engagements are not actually wars.

When I say "democracies can and will cause conflict" I do not mean to imply any moral meanings or sense of right and wrong.

Nor did I intend to make any comment on the rights or wrongs of any of the other military operations that I listed.

"And I am telling you that stepping in to stop ethnic cleansing is not causing conflict"

And just to make things perfectly clear I could have given Kosovo as an example of where the UK was involved in starting a conflict.

I would say that that was perfectly justifiable given what was happening, but the fact remains that the British Military was one of those who started that conflict.

So once again democracies can and will initiate armed conflicts.

Incidentally, I do agree with you that there is no rule that says democracies don't and can't aggress their neighbors.

Usually, though, it tends to be testesterone junkies with delusions of grandeur holding unmitigated power who come up with the brilliant idea to start wars of aggression.

Oh goody, he is resigning, so the Egyptian's have had their voices heard, it is a shame it is taking so long!

I can't look at Mobarak without thinking a man of his age with hair that colour must have it from a bottle!

Well not so goody.
He is not resigning but announced he will not run at the next election in September which he was not going to do anyway.
He is still there running the show with his VP (ex head of secret police).
Crowd not too impressed. They want an interim government.
Gamal, the heir apparent has fled to the UK for fear of being shot. He is entitled to as his mother is british. Is Mubarak deluded enough to think he can groom his soon to run a campaign from a safe harbor? God knows? As you said he starting to show signs of being senile anyway.

Quite sad listening to his speech. This is a man who started out with a very low profile and good intentions, with an impeccable record as a patriot and a soldier. An accidental leader if you will.
But power corrupts invariably.....with a little help from powerful friends on the other side of the Atlantic.

just received this.
Very simplistic but hey the truth is often very simple.

This site is in the UK, that informative link is about America.

Well slim, you think not goody, I think yes goody, and I have every right to be free to think what I want to!

If Mubarak is resigning, then that is a good thing as far as I can see. I stated it is a shame he is wating so long, as that is what I think about the situation.

I like the fact that Mubarak and the Army have dealt with this without obvious voilence (except in the first few days with the looting and general lack of law and order, and the very sad horrifying deaths of just over a hundred, and the injured), situations like this can often be an horrific blood bath and a great deal worse, it seems that things are calming down in Egypt, the only drama in the last few days has been the deomonstrations and lots of politican's and journo's!

So fingers crossed now, that the Egyptians can be left alone to get on with the long process of elections and readjustment into the new lives they would like to live as a nation.

Mubarak is not resigning.

You are free to think he is, of course

Erm, where is Mubarak resigning, he is simply not standing for office in September.

As someone pointed out, Ben Ali's second speech said he he was staying too...

If Mubarak thinks he is going to stay on until September, that's not looking as if it's going to be possible. Not now the carefully worded requests from Obama and Sarkozy and even our dear old Clegg are saying that transition must start now/without delay.

Not now the protesters want him to go.

The Egyptian state can't run without tourism, banking, services, Suez Canal, ports. It can't run without banks, cash, phones, internet. They do not have the reserves to finance this stand off.

The people of egypt are already suffering, already hungry, but they sense victory, they know that if they back down now, Mubarak can change his mind and there would be nothing they could do about it. Therefore they have nothing to lose and everything to gain by seeing this thing through.

The MORE ill-treated they are, the MORE threatened, beaten and abused they are, the MORE they will dig in.

Mubarak has to go, he knows it, the people know it and the international community knows it. He is clinging to his former power with the tiniest of manicured nails.

MH, where do you get that Mubarak has dealt with this without obvious violence? He ordered the release of prisoners out, he ordered former police squads to go around on motorbikes looting and attacking pro-reformists. Live bullets were used on Friday.

He ordered clashes with protesters yesterday. Alex hospitals were full last night as a result.

Mubarak authorised the Army to use maximum force. Which is why the Army said over and over and over that they would NOT be firing upon their own people, that they stood with their own people and would protect them.

The only drama has been the demonstrations and lots of politicians.... that is how it's supposed to be. Police are never supposed to fire upon their own people, tear gas them or beat them to death. They are not supposed to water canon them while they are praying, nor drive into crowds of them at speed and run them over.

This is not a FILM where we seek excitement, these are real people demanding their rights. Rights that our own people shed blood to secure.

It's not calming down, not at all, there is more exasperation, and thankfully more international community support.

Bit miffed that Obama didn't explicitly say for communications to be restored.... perhaps he got back to his office and said, Oh blast, I meant to say something about that...

In other news, my dear friend got into London this morning via the Gulf.... phew. 'H' still here though, no idea when he is going back.

That is great news about your friend, little Miss.

I do realise it is not a film, and I know they are real people, I am not a child, I can say, interpret and think what I like, as I am in control of myself and don't have anyone controlling me and as a result I don't feel the need to control others .

Nobody is trying to control your mind

The problem is that the people don't trust Mubrak and naturally don't trust his word. Will he quit in September or is this just biding time. Will he in the following months try to influence what happens next?

But the other side of the coin is that there is no credible/organised opposition. If he steps down now, there is a power vacuum and thats probably even more dangerous.

On balance, personally I think its probably better to leave him in charge for a few months as a lame duck president than have a hole.

Businesses are already extremely nervous. If chaos continues to reign, they'll simply pull out. Our customers are already pulling out of Cairo.

My fear is that if there is chaos, by the time the dust settles, there won't be an economy left.

Agree Niceguy2, the lack of an organised opposition seems to be why the lack of immediate transfer, but the option would have been to have transferred to Suleiman and taken a holiday while the elections are organised and political candidates declare themselves.

The next stage of the game is for the opposition to formulate, to thrash out a manifesto, and a list of realistic deliverables.

No idea how they would actually communicate that to the electorate at the moment with only State TV/radio to work with..

I see no way that businesses CAN stay operational in Egypt until this matter is resolved.

If he left today and Suleiman took over, the opposition would start negotiations, only then can things start to normalise.

MH, your post "the only drama in the last few days has been the deomonstrations and lots of politican's and journo's!" was just odd and came across as if you were craving violence.

Ah, perhaps this is a where is the women thing, sorry, allow me to explain..

For the last 30-odd year Mubarak has maintained emergency law, renewing it every 5 years. This meant that groups of more than 3 people were banned from meeting in the street.

Any form of dissent was arrestable, any opposition candidates were seen off. Some of them were arrested and tried in Military Courts for drug possession, fraud, embezzlement. Others were awfully accident prone and managed to drown themselves in a street gutter, or slipped and fell into a street drain pipe and were only found weeks later, miles away in a sewer pipe. Allegedly.

The protest itself IS the news, the dissent IS the scoop, the demand of democracy in a country that has never, in over 5000 years, had any say in who ruled it.

I don't think this situation will play out till september, Niceguy, as you said, it's not economically viable. The foreign investment/donations that Egypt relies on to fund it's infrastructure won't happen until the situation calms down.

MissHissy, I am not craving violence, it is not my thing, I am happy that things have calmed down from my point of view, I am sorry that you read that into my post.

i'm sure you never meant that, the wording of your post didn't come over as you intended i'm sure. not to worry, absolutely no harm done.

Sadly the peace in Tahrir square has been somewhat shattered, pro-regime sympathisers have been unleashed onto the square and they are fighting, hurling rocks and tear gas is being used again.

Army can't do anything, as it's not their mandate to do so.

The police are more than likely the hired thugs nowhere to be seen.

LittleMiss, I don't have to defend myself, I know what I meant, and the written word can so often be read in what ever way the reader wants to read it.

That is dreadfull about the peace being ruined, it looks like the journo's have thei drama to report again, I had thought it was all dying down now. I will catch up with the news later on, I hope that things calm down over there.

The police were no where to be seen when the looting went on also, it was suggested somehwere, I remember along the lines that it was the police doing the looting, I wonder if it is them hurling rocks etc?

Ok then..

The pro-Mubarak signs are professionally painted apparently.

People would vanish for any criticise, so many would say Mubarak is lovely, so they don't get arrested.

What do you think that means that they were professionally painted, that Mubarak was behind that group?

Have you seen - Saleh (Yemenite President) has also decided to not run in the next election (though Yemen has to wait until 2013 for that).

Have been lurking but have not posted here.

I wondered today, on hearing that UK, China, America and many other countries have in the past few days been sending planes to pick up their citizens from Egypt, if it were a sign that they knew that more violence was likely.

If they thought that the protest would continue peacefully, then surely they would not have strongly advised their countrymen to get the hell out of Egypt.

Hasn't Jordan ditched it's government today aswell in anticipation of similar.