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Justine and her mum - Times' Relative Values

158 replies

TanteRose · 16/01/2011 11:01

today's Relative Values

Justine, your mum in the photo in Malta looks just like you now Grin

Nice article - your mum sounds fun! Oh and is everyone at Mumsnet Towers really scared of you? Wink

OP posts:
sarah293 · 16/01/2011 21:15

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squeaver · 16/01/2011 21:47

Never mind all that, WHO IS SCARED OF JUSTINE?????

TanteRose · 17/01/2011 01:52

Here you are, Riven Smile

Elizabeth, 76, teacher
I used to say to my children: ?I know I haven?t been a very good mother, but I?ll be a really good grandmother. I know I?ve got it in me.? I went back to work when my eldest two were under three. Very few of my contemporaries worked. In those days women were supposed to be mothers, and if you weren?t any good at it, you were looked down upon. I joined the Housewives? Register discussion forum, which I suppose was an early Mumsnet, but if you didn?t have a car you were a bit stuck. I felt I was a prisoner in my own home a lot of the time.

By the time Justine was born I was teaching in a comprehensive school. I went back to work when she was five months old, and she just got on with it. She didn?t seem to resent my not being there as much as the other two. My elder daughter always said: ?I will never work when my children are small.? She thinks children need your full time until they?re about 11 ? which is all true, of course, and I do feel terrible about it. But I?d have gone completely mad if I?d stayed at home, and I think that would have been worse than not being there.

I was born into a cockney family. I took elocution lessons, and my greatest wish was for my children to have ?Oxford accents?. Of course, none of them did, so that was a big disappointment. Justine didn?t have to reach up in the way I did, because everything was there for her. She was brilliant at maths, English, sport, drama? When talents were being handed out, she got more than her share. But her school reports all complained she messed about and ruined everyone else?s chances. She was ringleader of a very noisy gang, and in a way she still is.

I had to leave school at 16 because we needed the money, but I always thought it would be lovely to go to university, so I wanted my children to get on and do their best. Justine got into Oxford easily, and she?d hate me saying this but I don?t think she put herself out too much. She?ll probably tell you I was a very, very critical mother, but I think that?s a generational thing.

People like me, who hadn?t had anything and wanted more for their children, tended to criticise.

I thought I was helping by saying: ?I think you can do better.? Whereas everything Justine?s kids do is absolutely brilliant, even if it?s ghastly.

With her drive and brains, Justine could never have been a full-time mum, but it?s not necessarily easier now to leave your children than it was then. Hers do resent it. One of the girls wrote her a very long letter saying: ?You and Dad are never here. All we want is to be with you.? It was quite heart-rending. But on the whole I?d say they?ve accepted it. Justine makes a point of watching them play sport ? she pushes this one back on me, because I often missed sports days and was always late picking her up. All working women try to pack too much in, but Justine is extraordinarily patient. However tired she is, if someone?s having a tantrum she?ll take time to find out why, whereas I was always inclined to say: ?Go to your room.?

I?ve noticed that some of her employees are quite scared of her. She?s got a very tough streak ? it?s no accident Mumsnet has taken off as it has. If she sets her heart on something, eventually she gets it, but there is a price. At weekends, I sometimes say to her: ?Just put your phone away. Let?s have one day without it.? And she says: ?I can?t.? She and Ian [The Guardian?s deputy editor, Ian Katz] live on the edge the whole time, and I think that?s very tough for them both. I do have a lot of fun with the children, and that?s helped her a lot. But I?m wary of giving advice, even if she asks for it. I never think she takes much notice of what I say. I?m very clear that my role is to let her bounce what she?s feeling off me, then go her own way.

Justine, 43, co-founder of Mumsnet
I always felt other people?s mothers somehow did it properly. Their packed lunches were a bit more packed, they were picked up on time, and their mums knew what was going on. But I wasn?t envious. I had this visceral pride in the fact that my mum worked, and felt she was far cooler than those who fussed over the sandwiches. Mum?s drive and ambition was wholly to do with a desire to improve her status and prove herself intellectually. She could never have been the little woman sitting at home, and I think that was a feminist thing ? never expressed but clearly felt. She came from a council estate; her dad was a tram driver and her mother was a cleaner. Her parents burnt her school books at one stage, but by the time she was 16 she?d changed the way she spoke to such a point that people meeting her wouldn?t have known where she came from. She used to get her boyfriends to drop her in the next street ? she?d never take anyone home because her mother dropped her aitches. I think it?s hilarious that she still has this ?telephone voice?, but that was very much the spirit of the time. It was about hauling yourself out of your class so you would be employable.

She used to correct me a lot, but I don?t remember it feeling oppressive. It was all about not wanting us to get too big for our boots. If I said, ?I came second in the chemistry test with 92%,? she?d say: ?Who got 94%?? Yet she wasn?t particularly pushy. Perhaps because she was so busy, I was left to get on with it and felt very trusted. There was none of the micromanaging we do today. I had this sense that she had her own life, so wasn?t obsessively interested in mine.

On family holidays she was the person we wanted to be with. We spent our time trying to make her laugh, because it meant so much to us when we did, but her attention was hard won. People probably find her difficult to get to know. She doesn?t do small talk ? neither of us does. She?ll come and help at the drop of a hat if I ask her to, but she won?t say: ?How are you getting on this week??

Mum?s incredibly good fun to be around, in a Grumpy Old Women sort of way. She?s an absolutely atrocious cook, partly because she never follows a recipe. She?ll always ?use something up? rather than buy what?s needed. We?re all terribly rude and she never takes it personally. She has a very wry, self-deprecating sense of humour, which my daughters find hysterical.

She has an amazing relationship with all my children because she really does want to just sit and chat and muck about. Everyone wants to be with Grandma; she?s the most magnetic person in the room.

There wasn?t a lot of play going on when I was growing up, or crafts, or baking, so through the prism of what a good mother is I think she probably failed. I try to do things differently, but find it doesn?t come easily to me either. And she was overly critical, which, since we?ve discovered parenting in our own right, we?ve all thrown back at her. But I was terribly proud of her for going out to work when it wasn?t fashionable, and now my daughters enjoy the fact that their mother does something that is occasionally glamorous, and that I?m able to get Gok Wan?s autograph.

They all have a go sometimes. I remember cycling to nursery, with my youngest singing ?Mummy, Mummy, don?t go to work? to the tune of Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star. But it doesn?t leave me jibbering, because I know they?ll be fine.

My mother has said to me: ?I wish I hadn?t worked so hard and had been a bit less ambitious.? But I felt I had a fairly idyllic childhood. She and I got on almost to the point of embarrassing hero worship. When I was about 18, a boyfriend said: ?God, you just think your mum?s great, don?t you?? And I still do. She has this very strong work ethic, which means she feels she must be useful. I have the most enormous respect for that, and for the way she bettered herself. And within a quite uncuddly environment I always felt very loved.

OP posts:
Xenia · 17/01/2011 08:11

It is relevant to the article. The working mothers who produce lovely families and enjoy their work the better and are prepared to say it's right, it works, it's best as her mother did, so much the better. It's worked great for me and I've had for some reason no guilt and why shoudl I? The guilt is a sexist thing.

Also children are arch maniuplators and can make all parents whether unemployed or at work guilty. You just have to realise that and know you do what is best for them. And like most of us the article reminds us how very dull most of us find whether male or female to be home all day. Work and a family life is the best combination.

sarah293 · 17/01/2011 08:39

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cory · 17/01/2011 08:44

Why does it have to be about superiority, Xenia? If a working mother who feels good about her choices is a positive influence on her children- as I am sure is the case- why should not the same apply to a SAHM or a home educator? Surely the positive influence comes precisely from the parent being positive?

MummyBerryJuice · 17/01/2011 08:49

Xenia - you're desperately trying to justify your choices, aren't you?

It's ok, you don't have to. I'm sure you're a great mum.

Lamorna · 17/01/2011 09:51

This is where the guilt comes in and so people have to justify their choice. There is no need to justify and it has no bearing on the future success of the DC. Attitudes are what counts and you can have similar attitudes whether you stay at home or go to work.No one should be saying that one is superior to the other. It is just one of many lifestyle choices.

MummyBerryJuice · 17/01/2011 10:07

I think that we all do what we think is best for our children (but we also know that we cannot be perfect). When we see other people's choices in light of this we automatically become defensive.

It is human nature.

I believe in accepting it, doing your best, minimising the amount of time feeling guilty and trying to move on.

(oh yes - and trying REALLY hard not to judge. As judging is just another defines mechanism anyway!)

MummyBerryJuice · 17/01/2011 10:09

Oops Blush defence obv.

lostinwales · 17/01/2011 10:09

OMG this has to be why I've never strayed into WOHM/SAHM threads before, I was lulled into a false sense of secureity by the Times article (lovely photo BTW, the pride shines out of Justine's mum, how lovely)

In my 11 years of parenting I have been WOHM full time and SAHM full time and everything in between as circumstances dictate. As Riven says 'It should be whatever works for each family '. The most important thing I have given my children is the knowledge that they are loved and supported and I will do the best by them that I can, and if that has been working towards a career to pay the motgage or staying at home with the playdough, as it was the financially viable option at the time, I have never found myself judging others for doing different. The most important thing with parenting is to be fluid and evolve with the situation as things change. And love, just love. Xenia I feel really sorry for you to be so stubborn and unbending. Good luck with that attitude as your children grow up.

crapkid · 17/01/2011 10:23

I think it is really sad that women are made to feel guilty for their choices.

The saddest has to be you Xenia that feels you have to belittle sahms in order to justify your own decision.

lifeinlimbo · 17/01/2011 12:29

What a lovely article :)

I think the issue of childcare is essential to the WOHM/SAHM debate. Here it is absolutely dependent on circumstances. Whereas in France for example, every workplace has high quality childcare (quaranteed from the age of 3), so its much easier to work if you want to.
To me that comes across as saying children are important, so society (government) ensures people are well supported when they do.

TBH I dont get why there is such debate over it here, when it is so dependant on/dictated by each individuals personal circumstance and can change at any time.

GetOrfMoiLand · 17/01/2011 12:31

I agree that the photo is absolutely lovely - so much love and pride on Justine's mum's face.

I don't feel guilt at all about working. Just doesn't occur to me to feel that.

perhaps I am a sociopath.

Lamorna · 17/01/2011 13:26

I thought that it was a lovely article and a very normal family and don't really see why we need to descend to whether you should go out to work or not.
If you are going to go mad at home it is better to get out and if you love it at home and can afford it, stay at home. Do what suits you but don't try and justify it by saying it is best!
Good enough is fine; in fact a lot easier to live with than aiming for perfection, which you will never get!

MummyBerryJuice · 17/01/2011 13:33

Well said Lamorna!

MmeLindt · 17/01/2011 13:45

Lovely article. Shame the thread has already descended into a SAHM/WOHM argy bargy.

I loved the line, " She was ringleader of a very noisy gang, and in a way she still is".

When my DD is a grown woman, I hope she and I will have such a relationship, so loving and full of fun.

Litchick · 17/01/2011 14:18

I saw the article yesterday, but to be fair it is primarily about working Mothers and how it was right for Justine's mum to WOH.

Just as it's right now, for Justine to WOH.

Bonsoir · 17/01/2011 14:26

"Whereas in France for example, every workplace has high quality childcare (quaranteed from the age of 3), so its much easier to work if you want to."

What????????

This is not true.

There is quite a lot of state-run and state-subsidised childcare about in France, but it ain't high quality...

lifeinlimbo · 17/01/2011 15:21

In France, available childcare provision is guaranteed by the state from the age of 3.

Bonsoir, do you live in france? Can you tell us how it all works?

I read about the 'guaranteed childcare for all from 3yrs' in the paper, and family who used to live there were always saying how excellent it was (so the high-quality may not be general?)
How do you find it?

Xenia · 17/01/2011 15:28

It is about working mothers and it will be a great day when people can interview mothers and daughters inthe way they would interview fathers and children and the issue of whether a woman should work or feel guilty for it does not come up.

And it's lovely to see articles about people who worked full time whilst their chidlren were young as despite the media representation of things many women always have and always will. It's a very important issue.

Bonsoir · 17/01/2011 15:43

No, there is no childcare provided by the state from age 3: school is provided by the state from age 3, 24 hours per week of it. That is not childcare.

Bonsoir · 17/01/2011 15:44

Oh and the school year is about 35 weeks long.

There is quite widespread provision of holiday schemes but not much at all in the way of wraparound care.

Lamorna · 17/01/2011 15:46

Of course women have always worked with small children and always will, I just don't see that it is important. It is down to choice and has no bearing either way!

Litchick · 17/01/2011 16:09

xenia that is very true.

Whenever I am interviewed, I am often asked how I balance writing and a family. I have never seen an article where a male author is asked the same point.