So, white working class children are being failed by schools and society in general.

[mrsruffallo]

Held in contempt by the middle classes (much evidence of that on here)
Industry no longer provides these people with a job for a life, dismissed as chavs, it seems that these are the the people that it is okay to ignore.....

agreed

We need a change in employment law for a start, my younger brothers have been in and out of temporary jobs for over 9 years since leaving school, they never have any rights, any sick pay or holiday and are "let go" at a moments notice.

Yet all these jobs pay just over minimum wage and require a car to get to, if it wasn't for our parents stumping up for the car/petrol/tax and insurance they wouldn't even have got this far (which isn't very frankly).
No wonder plenty of young men don't even try it genuinely is too hard for many.

Unless we send the parents to an obligatory socialist Siberian education camp we are not going to change parents overnight. It is unrealistic to use the nanny state on parents and it is also a cop out by the state to say that it is all parents' fault. Why did Labour only institute the one-to-one scheme during their last year? It is not good enough. The state can change things and provide excellent education, it is their responsibility, that's what we pay our taxes for. Why aren't they looking at shining examples of success and implementing change?

Even the most feckless of parents prefer to see their children getting As rather than Es, they are not as bad as is sometimes made out.

Yeah of course they'd love it but they aren't prepared to do anything themselves to make it happen and assume when other people get A's it's down to natural ability, nothing to do with hard work and sacrifice, seen that in my own family.

I think this attitude that it is the parent's responsibility and therefore the parent's fault if their kids fail is wrong. This is the state abdicating responsibility and blaming parents. The parents are not experts in education, they are busy trying to hold onto their jobs, they send their kids to the shiny school down the road and expect them to receive a quality education there. When they send their kids to the GP they expect the GP to make the correct diagnosis, they don't expect to have to get the medical books out themselves and take repsonsibility for the correct diagnosis.

It has to be at least partly the parents though, claig, if you stick with the GP example then it is up the parents to take the child to the GP if they think there is a problem and then it is often the parents who need to get the prescription filled and the medicine given at the correct times.

Engaging with the school/teacher is like visiting the GP and helping with homework and general study at home is the educational equivalent to following the prescription.

some parents are illiterate, they should not be expected to teach their children, that is the school's job. Of course parents who can will help and their kids will get an advantage, but schools should be able to provide a good education without the need for lots of parental input.

"they are busy trying to hold onto their jobs"

A lot of the sort of parents that I know of that fall into this category aren't working.

"they send their kids to the GP they expect the GP to make the correct diagnosis, they don't expect to have to get the medical books out themselves and take repsonsibility for the correct diagnosis."

When the GP sends the child home with medication they're expected to take that medication.

The parents we're talking about are the sort that don't bother to make sure that their children do their homework.

If the GP tells the child to stop doing something the parent does not storm down to the Doctor's and complain.

"I think this attitude that it is the parent's responsibility and therefore the parent's fault if their kids fail is wrong."

Well the parent's attitudes to education are one of the biggest factors regarding success at school.

That's not the same as saying it's their fault so we need not do anything.

It is just conceding what the real issue here is which is the only way that something can be done about it.

But the parental input is often simply a case of making sure the child turns up at school in the morning ready to learn, listening to them read a book or making sure they do their homework. That's it at heart. You don't have to be rich or educated to do any of those things.

"schools should be able to provide a good education without the need for lots of parental input"

It's not input it's support.

It's making sure that homework is being done.

It's making sure that someone attends parents evening.

It's backing the school up if they have to discipline a child.

Those were the problems I heard about, not illiteracy.

but Chil1234, there are laws about sending kids to school, and the authorities have even jailed single mothers whose daughters truanted. I think it is wrong to give the impression that parents can't be bothered to send kids to school, this feeds into the line that it is the parents to blame. They have to comply with sending kids to school anyway.

I said 'turn up at school ready to learn'. Truancy will get you a prison sentence but if the child hasn't had enough sleep or they haven't been given breakfast then they are disruptive and can't concentrate. My SIL is a primary teacher (Year 2)and this is what she found. Children as young as six making their own way to school, no breakfast, not washed, no-one to help them get dressed or remember the reading book.

Some people really can't be bothered.

@nottirednow.... I think you need an update. Many people these days think that certain jobs are beneath them, 'not worth doing' because they'd lose out on benefits and then complain when an immigrant happily steps in to fill the vacancy.

"there are laws about sending kids to school, and the authorities have even jailed single mothers whose daughters truanted"

"Turns up" doesn't just mean being physically present. It means making sure the child is clean and hopefully fed (though actually that is one thing that Schools can do, Breakfast Clubs seems to make a huge difference both to actual attendance and attention in class).

And the number of parents punished for truancy is tiny compared to the actual occurrence of truancy.

Not that I'm suggesting that locking them up is the answer either, that will just disenfranchise even more people from schools.

I think parenting does need to change, but I don't think we should tackle it by trying to change the current generation of parents.

I am in grave danger of agreeing with you here, claig

"Industry no longer provides these people with a job for a life,"

Isn't that the case for most people regardless of class?

If homework is not done, the school should take sanctions. It is the state that has allowed the situation where parents can challenge schools on discipline etc. Fifty years ago it was unheard of. The state locks up single mothers whose daughters trunat but doesn't stop parents being aggressive with teachers over discipline etc. Attending or not attending parents evening is not a make or break issue, parents can be called in if necessary and letters can be sent home. I don't think that these issues are behind the underachievement of so many kids.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink was my nan's favorite expression, it may be the law to attend school but it's not illegal to refuse to participate or learn which many children from all sorts of backgrounds do.
They need a kick up the backside and if the parents won't do it you can hardly expect the teachers with their limited powers to do so.

I don't believe in homework.

We need to engender a culture whereby learning is its own reward.

" I don't think that these issues are behind the underachievement of so many kids"

When 'failing schools' turn themselves around it's often these seemingly small elements that are crucial. Wearing a uniform with pride, parents attending consultation evenings, commitment to submit homework on time, standing up when a teacher enters the room... Whatever other horrors a child has to cope with, if school is a place of order and routine with clear rules, and if parents back this up as best they can, then they can acheive a lot.

"It is the state that has allowed the situation where parents can challenge schools on discipline etc. Fifty years ago it was unheard of."

What exactly has the state down that now means that parents storm up the school when their child is told off for something?

"Attending or not attending parents evening is not a make or break issue"

It indicates a lack of interest in the child's education, which the child will pick up on.

yes learning is fun and is its own reward, that is what we should be trying to convey. However, I think that homework is still good as it manages to fit more learning time into the day, it tests knowledge and action can be taken if a pupil hasn't grasped the concepts.

Let's be clear, when 'failing schools' 'turn themselves around', their success is measured by very narrow and prescriptive criteria- they often make 'improvements' by excluding a large percentage of the students.

I suspect, if you didn't have a very good experience of school yourself, you probably don't have the knowledge, skills and attitude to build a relationship with your child's school very easily. I suspect if you've had a bad relationship with authority in general this might apply even more strongly.

Mamatomany's brothers won't the only ones struggling with temporary job on shit pay, terms and conditions after temporary job etc. etc. etc. Many people in that or similar situations will feel, quite naturally, that no-one who runs the country or runs any institution connected with authority, gives a toss about them.

I had the delight of attending a sink school very briefly as an 11yo. The teachers were jaundiced (understandably, I guess) and the kids certainly got the message that all they were fit for was going down the pit (boys) or sitting on the till in the supermarket until you got married (girls). Certainly not worth aspiring to anything more.

Their own teachers didn't think there was much point in many of them doing well at school, or much hope that they would. These days they wouldn't even have the pit option! (No disrespect to supermarket staff or former miners, btw, it was just the message really was 'this is where YOU are going, like it or not'.)