yet another argument about DP's hoarding. How do I deal with it?

[UnderThePile]

Today's argument was triggered when I asked him to go through his spice collection as I can't fit any shopping in the kitchen. We have a rotating spice rack, he has had it for over 5 years (must be past their use by) it's an enormous contraption, holds about 25 jars, I despise it. In addition, an enitire kitchen cupboard is full of spices. It's ridiculous. We will never eat enough food to use them all! I don't understand it.

The house of full of crap. Not only his, granted, but he has the main collection of crap! He seems to collect clothes, shoes, leaflets, bits of paper, ugly ornaments, magazines, kitchen utensils, DVDs... The list goes on. He's a huge consumer. I think it stems from his mother. She has a large house full of things she has bought that she will never use. Rooms are unusable due to her hoard. I am terrified we are going to end up the same.

I hate clutter. It takes forever to clean around it all, the house always looks a tip, I am allergic to dust and I blame the piles of his stuff for my constant sniffling and sneezing. I don't have time or the motivation to dust his shit everyday!

One of our small rooms is full of stuff. Some of it is useful stuff eg.the vacuum cleaner, steam cleaner, ironing board. The rest of it is untouched, unused bits and pieces. These bits and pieces take up 4 large shelves and two thirds of the floor. It's depressing.

He's excruciatingly sentimental. Holds on to cinema tickets, day out tickets, useless receipts, leaflets, business cards. The loft is full of towels, clothes, shoes, books, all of which he "may need one day". He even has wage slips from 8 years ago. His mother also saves EVERYTHING. Every bit of schoolwork and craft he has ever done. It seems genetic!

I want to spring clean. I don't want to have to clean piles, move piles and re-pile piles to clean!

He never gets rid of anything. When I bring it up, we argue. Why do hoarders hoard? Is there a way to stop the arguments and get a happy, clutter free home?

Oh, and it makes a lot of sense to me that traumatic experiences of loss are implicated in this.

Devora that sounds like such an hard way to live. Has your partner ever saught professional help?

We call that StreetCycling round here, works brilliantly!

Mrs DeVere, that must be very hard

Ditto lottieandmias!

No, Various. Though recently admitted, for the very first time, that there is a problem. Not ready to move beyond there yet.

Was it always that way or has it spiralled?

I've always been crap. I would have previously classed myself as a mid weight to light weight hoarder. DH too. Now not a hoarder at all. It took 6 months and 20/15 hours a week to reach this point but the aesthetic change is dramatic and the change in how we actually live is dramatic.

I had a boss once with a hoarding problem and also have a couple of family members who are hoarders.

I've always just chucked things out when they weren't around. Nothing's ever been missed

It is selfish, though. That doesn't mean it's the person's fault. But it is a self-serving problem/illness/whatever that doesn't take into account the needs of others.

Someone with a physical disability can't get help to change it. Hoarders can, but - like alcoholics - they need to want to change.

Saying it is selfish is not the same as saying they should be able to magically snap out of it.

How is it a self-serving problem? That implies that anyone might want a hoarded house, but only hoarders have the problem that makes them selfish enough to give it to themselves.

A person with severe arthritis doesn't want to walk because it fucking hurts. Does that mean that when they don't walk somewhere they're being selfish? They are, after all, giving in to their own desire not to walk, albeit a desire created by a disease. Similarly a person with hoarding disorder doesn't want to discard their three hundred pieces of foil, or rooms full of books or whatever, because it hurts and is terrifying. They too are giving into their own desire not to do something - a desire created by an illness.

If one is selfish then the other is too. The only way only the hoarder is selfish and the person disabled by arthritis isn't is if you minimise the pain and fear associated with discarding stuff that the hoarder experiences, compared with a physical pain, i.e. if you say physical pain counts and is real, mental distress doesn't count, and so doing anything other than powering through it and ignoring it is selfish.

Most people want the hoarders to just push through the pain because they think it doesn't really count as real, but the real solution is to address the root cause and try to make throwing stuff out less painful to start with. Actually they still have to push through some pain (as does the arthritis sufferer, if they want to get anything done and not just sit down all day), but with proper help at least they do it with the support of people who understand that it is real pain, not self-indulgence.

It is self-serving to make other people live in a hoarded mess because you are a hoarder. I didn't say it was pleasant. But the point is that hoarders are unable to prioritise the comfort of others as the hoarding wins. Much like alcoholism.

So the hoarding comes first. I didn't say it was their fault.

I'm hiding this thread now. I grew up with hoarders and yes it is fucking selfish.

A person with a physical disability who could walk with extreme pain but doesn't is presumably likewise 'unable to prioritise the comfort of others', if by not walking they are forcing other people to exhaust themselves caring for them instead?

Except of course nobody would ever put it like that for a physical illness, we would never say that the person in pain is 'unable to prioritise the comfort of others', even if the outcome is the same in that one person's pain has effects that reach out and affect other people too.

That's because most people believe in the reality of the pain of the person with the physical illness, but not in the reality of the pain and distress of the person with a mental illness. Their pain and distress is not seen as a real and valid constraint on their behaviour that needs serious help to be got past, it's seen as a weak excuse for a selfish moral choice to give in to a desire for lots of stuff.

Selfish or not this certainly has a big negative impact on others in the home. if people won't listen to loved ones, acknowledge the problem and seek help it's entirely understandable if partners (and DC when old enough) sadly choose to leave.

Devora, sounds like you have big problems and that your W seems unlikely to change. Would one option be to cease doing so much housework (which isn't great for you or the DC) and just chuck her stuff into one room for her to deal with? And get a cleaner? You could also prioritise making finances fairer. Is she in debt?

We can only ever experience our own suffering, we try and measure the suffering of others by extrapolation based on what we imagine we would feel if in their shoes.
Obviously this is inaccurate we can never truly know how someone else's suffering compares to our own.
We can call a person selfish but if transplanted into that persons head we may well do exactly what they are doing.
Very interesting thread with some great insights into hoarding!
It does seem to have gained momentum as a 'thing' in recent years?
Perhaps unconsciously people increasingly recognize it as a way of expressing internal distress? ?

(ditto animal hoarding)

And if they have AS they do not have any insight into how other people feel or how their behaviour affects others, hence why my DSis has lived alone for many years. Although, even then, they can work on it if they accept they have AS (unlike my DSis).

I see your point MrsDevere and it is often said that those with insight have a better chance of recovery with these sorts of things

I wonder if those who want other peoples junk (charity shops, second hand clothes vendors, recyclists) could benefit from being more pro active?
I'd get rid of stuff more often if there were more bins that it could be dumped in.
I don't have a car and I tend to talk myself out of hauling loads of stuff over to charity shops or recycling depots ?

(I have a shopping trolley too, no excuses really )

I live near a hoarding neighbour. After observing him I have stopped interacting.

It wasn't easy as I think he collects people too.

The comments regarding alcoholic type behaviour does ring true.

This guy has a friend who is a clean minimalist and he tidies and cleans before she visits as she tells him off. I think he likes her telling him off. I think she likes having him as a project.

I also agree there is a deep selfishness about him too. He doesn't care for the needs of others. He can't be wrong and tells lies. He told me years ago he hid money during his divorce and how he struggled to get the money back because he opened a bank account in a different name.

I must say I would have found it really hard to majorly declutter without a car. I usually put stuff to charity/give away/chuck in the boot and get rid of it when I happen to next drive pass a charity shop.