yet another argument about DP's hoarding. How do I deal with it?

[UnderThePile]

Today's argument was triggered when I asked him to go through his spice collection as I can't fit any shopping in the kitchen. We have a rotating spice rack, he has had it for over 5 years (must be past their use by) it's an enormous contraption, holds about 25 jars, I despise it. In addition, an enitire kitchen cupboard is full of spices. It's ridiculous. We will never eat enough food to use them all! I don't understand it.

The house of full of crap. Not only his, granted, but he has the main collection of crap! He seems to collect clothes, shoes, leaflets, bits of paper, ugly ornaments, magazines, kitchen utensils, DVDs... The list goes on. He's a huge consumer. I think it stems from his mother. She has a large house full of things she has bought that she will never use. Rooms are unusable due to her hoard. I am terrified we are going to end up the same.

I hate clutter. It takes forever to clean around it all, the house always looks a tip, I am allergic to dust and I blame the piles of his stuff for my constant sniffling and sneezing. I don't have time or the motivation to dust his shit everyday!

One of our small rooms is full of stuff. Some of it is useful stuff eg.the vacuum cleaner, steam cleaner, ironing board. The rest of it is untouched, unused bits and pieces. These bits and pieces take up 4 large shelves and two thirds of the floor. It's depressing.

He's excruciatingly sentimental. Holds on to cinema tickets, day out tickets, useless receipts, leaflets, business cards. The loft is full of towels, clothes, shoes, books, all of which he "may need one day". He even has wage slips from 8 years ago. His mother also saves EVERYTHING. Every bit of schoolwork and craft he has ever done. It seems genetic!

I want to spring clean. I don't want to have to clean piles, move piles and re-pile piles to clean!

He never gets rid of anything. When I bring it up, we argue. Why do hoarders hoard? Is there a way to stop the arguments and get a happy, clutter free home?

Good point steppe!

Soup - so you will dismiss the whole book based on a couple of naff paragraphs in the book? I also read negative reviews along with positive reviews but obviously when there are so many positive reviews, it really speaks volumes.

I think that might be because I get the sense that OP is not at the stage yet where this is a deal breaker for her. It doesn't sound like she wants to leave the relationship. So all she can do is look after herself within the situation and hopefully in the process support her partner (sorry I think I called him your husband earlier) to an extent as well. Perhaps she will be able to engineer some clearing out of his things along the way, but really all she can actually do is make the best of the situation for herself and her child, which involves creating her own space. I wonder if you actually have anything to get rid of, UnderThePile, as I imagine you've already had to keep your belongings to a minimum. But I'm curious to see whether the Kondo philosophy and approach will still be helpful to you. I'm not a hoarder and I have a very small house with actually not all that much stuff in it as I've always had to keep on top of it, really, but I still found it a great framework by which to work for clearing out now in prep for a big move and also to free myself of the tyranny of clutter.

Again, I hope there is some resolution to this. I know it's very difficult to face but I think were i in your position I would aim to have a deadline in my mind and issue one ultimatum that if there wasn't significant progress by that time, it would be a deal breaker. Mostly for my child's sake. It can be hugely damaging for a child (and dangerous!) to grow up in a household that is severely impacted by hoarding, but I guess you're probably aware of that.

Last comment from me for now, I do apologise if I've filled your thread up too much, UnderThePile, but hopefully some of it will be helpful to you.

On dedicated decluttering in general and a commitment to changing one's mindset in relation to 'stuff', I have found it hugely rewarding that as I let go of things, life seems to expand to fill the space. Hard to explain exactly what I mean but it's definitely a very real thing.

Holger - I so agree with you and if anyone has to think of a reason to declutter - do it for your children. You will cause huge suffering, they wont be able to invite their friends back, there will be gossip about the hoarder Mum at the school gates, the child wont have a safe place to do homework, the danger of extreme hoarding (and have to include my father in this) is that you could trip, stumble or worse over all the mess, you might not be able to find the phone. We have tried to get him a panic button or even a cordless phone - no way. it would cost money so therefore he will live as he chooses to.

I dont think it helps tbh that he owns the house and lives on his own. He always put himself first and wanted control over what he did. Whenever there was a family decision to make it was always in his interests as to what would happen

Well, now he has it. A tumbled down wreck of a house, with rubbish all over the place and no partner.

It is such a complex issue and one I certainly didn't understand until I met my MIL. She has suffered the tragic loss of two children and this is quite obviously the route of her problem but knowing that doesn't really change anything.

I agree with those saying you can't just throw things away. We arranged for my MIL to come and help for 5 days when we were moving house and DS was 8 months old. Unknown to us FIL used this opportunity to go through the house and clear and organise large amounts of stuff. The impact of this was huge, the fallout was horrible AND nothing changed she unpacked everything that was stored in boxes to 'check' it and bought more items to replace the ones lost.

Recently we have made progress, we gave the ultimatum that we could not stay at their house with DS as it was unsafe. This was a year ago and in that time they have cleared the lounge and living room, It has been moved into a large summer house in the garden bought for the purpose so the 'problem' itself has not been solved at all but none the less I am still really proud of MIL, hoarding at this level is truly an illness.

If you can't get your DP to see a counselor to address the root of the problem then as PP have said can you give him a space to put everything so you can have some clear areas in the home. Though it might take an ultimatum to get through to him how serious this issue is for your family?

and hillingdon for you. I have seen how difficult it is for FIL and DH I can't imagine how difficult it would be if it was my own parents.

Agreed it's a huge emotional issue. ILs are hoarders stemming from growing up poor and hating waste. MrNC and I have tendencies that we are combatting pretty well. I've got over a lot of sentimentality, and MrNC will agree on what could be got rid of if I will then make it happen.

So I'd suggest to the OP that she ask DP how many spices they should have, and suggest going through them to ensure none have gone too stale and they know what is there and can use it when they want. If he can relax knowing he has a satisfactory spice collection, he may be happy to give others away?
Similarly, could much other stuff be carefully stored in labelled boxes, "to prevent damage and to ensure you can find it if needed" - date the boxes, and then in future you can see if the stuff was ever useful. This is where Kondo comes in so useful - if you put all items in a category together, you can see if you have way more than even a hoarder thinks is necessary and they may well be happy to get rid of the excess, whereas if you start with a "getting rid" plan this scares them.

Still crap if the whole project has to be OP's responsibility...

Like she has to manage him

IMO give him one separate room, or else live apart are the fairest options.

Baby, she can only really do her stuff

I dont see my father much at all. There were many years when I didnt see him at all. Now, because of the state of his house and the way he chooses to live I avoid when ever I can. I think deep down he knows he has blown it for himself - not in a million years would he admit it though and one needs to allow people to choose their own paths in life dont they.

My sister got very upset about it, spoke to him for hours and he eventually said it seemed she was more concerned about it then he was.

So, we have left him to it.

I still think its a very selfish way to live. Sorry.

My dh is a bit like this. I got the Kondo book, suggested he read it too (we are moving to a smaller house), he got defensive "I'm not getting rid of my stuff if I don't want to". I told him it wasn't about that, it was about keeping only those things that spark joy in you when you touch them. He said "oh that's ok then".
I read it and started, then he did and I am honestly shocked at how much has gone. He got (us) into a lot of debt a few years ago and we were in debt management to repay it, it's his comfort to buy stuff, and he likes to collect. But this book has struck a cord with him as it has with me. Just buy it, read it and let him see you aren't chucking everything out. Good luck

It's very odd as now I get a buzz from getting rid of stuff rather then buying stuff. A short while ago we ebayed lots of big items - chairs, wardrobes, baby equipment, garden furniture and walked away with £400. Better then the cash was the empty space and having only joyful stuff in my home.

This is an interesting thread and all the explanations of the MH aspects make sense - the emotional attachment, possible early trauma, anxiety. Another aspect, which may not apply to the OP or many others and has been mentioned a little, is the possibility of Aspergers. My DSis has AS and, to all intents and purposes, looks like a hoarder. But I don't think she is emotionally attached to her stuff, in fact I would say she is indifferent, much as she is with people. She just doesn't "see" it. Her home is also filthy, something I suspect other hoarders may not like or maybe they simply have someone to keep on top of the cleaning which she does not. If all her clutter disappeared tomorrow, I don't think she'd care much. I know this doesn't apply to most on here and I could be wrong about the role of AS for some.

Interesting, Davros. My dad and FIL almost certainly would be diagnosed with AS now, and my dad ended up with hundreds of boxes of papers from work and magazines with articles that might be useful, etc. Then he retired and over a year happily went through every box in order and recycled 99% of it. He still has more paper than most people but equally can still find any one immediately.

FIL is more of a hoarder but it stems from following a "don't throw anything away that might be useful" rule. So logic will work - he used to have mountains of old newspapers until I explained about the National Newspaper Library and that most of the papers could even be found online now if he wanted an article. Then he happily chucked the lot. Until SIL complained that not every crossword was finished and started wanting to keep them again...

I think this is why Kondo is working for me - individual items are seen as still-useful, but putting all similar items together enables me to see the wood rather than the trees.

Actually, thinking about it, my DSis with AS does like buying things. I think she then loses interest in them and/or can't find them. At one time it was posh lipsticks, I remember that she had about 17 in one bag that each must have cost £20+ and this was years ago! She was always saying she had bought X because she "deserved it", whatever that meant.

I think the main question is 'do the ornaments being you joy or are they useful?' If the answer is yes to one of those questions, then keep the item.

I've learnt to be ruthless. It's taken me 3 or so sweeps of an area to get things paired right back

My ex husband is like this. He has a house full of crap and his children are embarrassed by it and don't want to go and see him. It's really very annoying. I can completely understand how you feel op but I'm not sure there's an easy answer to it.

I still think its a very selfish way to live. Sorry.

You might as well say that someone who is physically ill or disabled is living in a 'selfish' way because their illness makes life difficult for their family to live a normal life and stops people wanting to be in a relationship with them.

An extreme hoarder has about as much choice about the way they manage their stuff and how it affects other people, even if it's not a physical issue but a mental one.

I assume you wouldn't say that about someone who was physically ill or disabled though.

The bottom line is you don't believe this has any mental health component at all do you? Or is it that you do, but you think mental health issues aren't really real - are you also one of these people as someone else said who thinks that depressed people just ought to realise that they ought to cheer up, and then they will magically be able to do it?

Someone with anything like a hoarding disorder, when face with a 'get rid of this?' decision, is like someone with two broken arms being asked to pick up a ball and play a throwing game. It's much, much harder for them to make that decision, or even to have it made in front of them by someone else. It feels deeply terrifying to them to even face it let alone say yes easily. Just because you can't see the thing that's imparing them doesn't mean it isn't real.

(Nice to see you Davros)

I wouldn't live with an out of control alcoholic even if I still loved them, and I think it's not at all unreasonable for someone not to want to live with an extreme hoarder, but it is unreasonable to write their issues off as simple selfishness.

I think family members need and deserve help and support, but it has to go alongside education about the real causes of hoarding or nothing will ever get any better for any member of the family.

This is such an interesting and useful thread. My dp hoards clothes, shoes and books. In addition, there is a compulsive messiness: nothing ever gets put in the sink when it can be left on the couch, nothing ever gets put in the bin if it can be left on the floor, butter and cheese always get left out, cupboard doors are always left open, towels are always on the floor, food spills will be left to harden rather than wiped straight away. As she works from home, and I don't, this means I always come home to a house that looks like a bomb has dropped.

Further, our bedroom and the study are full of the clothes and shoes. There is no wardrobe or drawer space left; there are huge piles of clothes on the floor that cannot be tidied because there is nowhere left to tidy them to. My clothes and shoes are kept in plastic boxes in a storage cupboard. She has two rooms; I have no space.

I spend my weekends frantically cleaning mess. I have never done more housework, but it doesn't look like it. My children pay a price; I work all week, then do housework all weekend, and time with them gets really squeezed. I hate this but I just cannot live in a house that looks like it's just been burgled (and believe me, my standards are not high).

Clearly, all this frock and book buying has an impact on our family finances too. One that means i don't get new clothes because we can't afford it.

It. Drives. Me. Crazy.

Friends and family say, "I wouldn't put up with that! You have to tell her/make her etc". But it's really not that simple. Over 20 years I have nagged, shouted, wept, pleaded. I have done mammoth culls and cleans when she is away for a few days. I have offered to run whatever system she thinks will work with her, filing her papers for her every night etc. But this is a MH issue and none of those approaches work.

So OP, I really feel your pain. Just reading this thread has been quite therapeutic for me. I'm going to take a look at the Marie Kondo book myself.