yet another argument about DP's hoarding. How do I deal with it?

[UnderThePile]

Today's argument was triggered when I asked him to go through his spice collection as I can't fit any shopping in the kitchen. We have a rotating spice rack, he has had it for over 5 years (must be past their use by) it's an enormous contraption, holds about 25 jars, I despise it. In addition, an enitire kitchen cupboard is full of spices. It's ridiculous. We will never eat enough food to use them all! I don't understand it.

The house of full of crap. Not only his, granted, but he has the main collection of crap! He seems to collect clothes, shoes, leaflets, bits of paper, ugly ornaments, magazines, kitchen utensils, DVDs... The list goes on. He's a huge consumer. I think it stems from his mother. She has a large house full of things she has bought that she will never use. Rooms are unusable due to her hoard. I am terrified we are going to end up the same.

I hate clutter. It takes forever to clean around it all, the house always looks a tip, I am allergic to dust and I blame the piles of his stuff for my constant sniffling and sneezing. I don't have time or the motivation to dust his shit everyday!

One of our small rooms is full of stuff. Some of it is useful stuff eg.the vacuum cleaner, steam cleaner, ironing board. The rest of it is untouched, unused bits and pieces. These bits and pieces take up 4 large shelves and two thirds of the floor. It's depressing.

He's excruciatingly sentimental. Holds on to cinema tickets, day out tickets, useless receipts, leaflets, business cards. The loft is full of towels, clothes, shoes, books, all of which he "may need one day". He even has wage slips from 8 years ago. His mother also saves EVERYTHING. Every bit of schoolwork and craft he has ever done. It seems genetic!

I want to spring clean. I don't want to have to clean piles, move piles and re-pile piles to clean!

He never gets rid of anything. When I bring it up, we argue. Why do hoarders hoard? Is there a way to stop the arguments and get a happy, clutter free home?

I believe hoarding (at this level) stems from anxiety about insecurity - a past loss or sense of abandonment. I don't know whether his mum could have 'taught' it to him and she was the one with the original loss.

My XDH was a bit of a hoarder, not to this level but certainly unreasonable in a few areas. He had been abandoned by his mother at the age of 5.

I dealt with it by

• ignoring the bits that didn't affect me as long as they didn't spill into my life, insisting/assuming/making stuff stay within boundaries, i.e. all his clothes had to fit into his own space, no overspill into mine
• no big clearouts but keeping on top of new stuff - one new pair of trousers in meant one old pair out to the charity shop
• when one thing went, taking the opportunity to find a few more in a similar state and get rid of them too

So with the spice rack, I'd find one that's out of date and say 'oh look we need to get rid of this it's well out of date, it will have lost its flavour', get his agreement, then find another 1 or 2 that are also out of date and then stop there. That establishes that out of date stuff has to go and is a bite-sized throwaway. Then gradually nibble away at the rest. Crucially no replacements until you actually need them.

Sorry for typos fat fingers

why don't you have your space and he has his in the house that way you can at least have a clear room that you can spend time in. it would be a dealbreaker for me unfortunately - I couldn't deal with the mess.

Can't live separately (low income). I'm going to spend today decluttering my areas. I've already informed him of this. Rubbish/recycling/charity shop. He gets no input - if it's in "my area" I get to deal with it - I informed him of this too. If his crap has spilled over into my area, tough. Obviously if there is anything he clearly needs, I will leave it on the bed for when he gets home.

In principle I don't buy books any more. Clutter! (And I have a Kindle which, to me, represents an antidote to book clutter - which he bought me!) But I may make an exception for this one. Maybe it'll sink in. He definitely won't read it on the Kindle.

I like the idea of "my zones" and "his zones". But his zones are larger due to collections of his stuff, and they inevitability expand, and my zones are relatively small and therefore crammed full of my stuff for my hobby (I knit).

Do we think he is going to agree to getting rid of the 2 pushchairs - both of which are now too small for DD? We've been arguing contemplating it for a month...

Going to try and find that support thread now as I'm aware I'm hijacking this one...

You're not alone, OP. I don't know what to suggest though. Tea helps.

If this is at the level of being the hoarding MH condition, which it sounds like it could be, you could try encouraging him to seek help. If he refuses then it's your decision whether or not to put up with the ongoing negative impact.

This would be a deal-breaker for me and I would ask him to either clear it out (into storage if necessary) or live separately.

PurpleWithRed - that bit about the hoarding stemming from a past loss has just turned a lightbulb on for me! DH & MIL have both suffered early bereavement. I think you are right though - nibble away at it. If this is about insecurity then proposing sweeping it all away isn't reasonable.

My instinct is that it could actually work for him. Partly because it seems much of it is learned behaviour, but also because my instinct is that the way she writes about it might appeal and also might give him some emotional tools for dealing with clearing out. No one is happy living with huge amounts of clutter. It's oppressive and bad for the mind. If by any chance his interest is piqued by it, there's a chance something will sink in from it. People on the kondoing threads report that their partners and even their children/teenagers remarkably often start to become interested as well. Almost as if they can sense the freedom and relief it brings to the spaces that have been cleared.

I wouldn't get my hopes up too high, of course, because it may make no difference at all (depends on how much of a psychological disorder it is, but perhaps some of it is 'just' learned behaviour in which case there is more chance he might find some motivation to want a change in his home life).

Be warned, the book seems a bit wooo in some ways, but I believe you have to see through the way she's framed it (holding and 'thanking' each item, etc) and realise that what you're actually doing is repeatedly using an affirmation so that your mind is properly engaged with the process. And it really does seem to work.

Good luck. I hope there will be some resolution.

If the Hoarder programmes are on iPlayer, it might be worth watching them. The ones I watched were the BBC ones with a presenter called Jasmine (can't remember her surname) who had a mother who hoarded. They followed both her road to "recovery" and stories of other hoarders. It was, at times, heartbreaking but gave a good insight into why it isn't just the fact that they are untidy and that they do actually have a mental health problem.

Help for Hoarders

Just don't try to make him read it. Leave it somewhere, and start quietly kondoing your own and mutual spaces where you can. If he never picks it up you won't have lost anything as you'll still have benefitted.

I have hoarders in my family. It drives the people around them utterly crazy! I think you have to stake a claim on a couple of rooms for yourself and ban any clutter whatsoever. Once he sees the benefit of this lovely tidy area and how happy it makes you, there is a tiny chance he may come to see things your way a bit more. It is a non confrontational way of doing it. If he is not prepared to give over an area less than 50% of the living space to your way of doing things, he is forcing his habit on you and even he (being very touchy about it) should be able to see that is unfair!

OP, I agree with the others who mentioned his space and your space - and you mention it too, but that his space is bigger than yours, and constantly enroaches on yours. You can't change his hoarding (I have a family member who hoards) but you can insist on equal space. If the two of you disagree about whether something is kept or not, then if he wants it, it stays in his space. If it ends up in your space then it's yours to chuck. Same with anything else of his - he can keep whatever he likes, but it has to stay in his space. If not, out it goes. If he runs out of room that's his problem, not an excuse to invade your space. That way he gets permission to keep whatever the hell he wants, and you get permission to keep half the house free.

But you have to strictly enforce it. If it's left in your space, one warning to move it then out it goes.

he is forcing his habit on you and even he (being very touchy about it) should be able to see that is unfair!

That's like saying someone with depression should see they just need to cheer up or that an alcoholic should see they just need to stop drinking.

For further insight, there's Hoarding: Buried Alive. And The Hoarder Next Door.

The BBC programme was Britain's Biggest Hoarders and the episodes seem to be on You Tube. They had a psychologist on the programme who tried to help the hoarders overcome the compulsion and face up to what had caused it in the first place. I remember one woman who hoarded food because she had gone hungry as a child. IIRC, she gave her hoard to a food bank or something like that so that in her mind it was properly dealt with and put to use elsewhere.

Ragwort - because decluttering is often contagious and addictive once a person starts. People do change. I changed, my cousin changed, two of my friends are mid change - all inspired by the book and seeing other people go from extremely cluttered 'out of control' houses to very streamlined orderly houses. It can be done. Yes he has to want to change. A huge part of the problem for me was that decluttering seemed unobtainable because it was such a massive overwhelming job and I didn't know how to do it or where to start. The book was inspiring and led me through the whole process.

You can't logic him out of it. Daughter of a hoarder here and have had to work hard to get rid of traits I picked up.

DO NOT GET A SKIP OR CHUCK STUFF. He will just recreate the mess again.

He needs therapy.

Another option is to get a professional declutterer in. You MUST make sure they are members of www.apdo-uk.co.uk/ as they have training in the psychological issues around hoarding and are used to working with OCD etc.

There are some famous declutterers who aren't members. Do be careful to check.

The problem is the person hoarding has to admit there's an issue and has to want to change it - much like alcoholism.

Does the Kondo book really advise ripping pages out of books and thanking your clothes??

I know it advises thanking your clothes.

Decluttering equaled mental and physical freedom for me. Also a house that's easier and less time consuming to clean. We even have a minimalist wardrobe of clothes now, just the essentials. Ive managed to get rid of huge bits of furniture and no longer have piles of mixed up items/paperwork laying round the house. My kids have less toys and are hilarious, often asking me if something's useful/fills me with joy.

It does

Some people find the idea of ripping pages out of books quite sacrilegious. But for the sort of person who finds it hard to part with hundreds and hundreds of books because they like the way that certain paragraph is written or they once found that particular concept helpful in addressing an issue, or might someday need that specific recipe etc, I think it's a good idea. The central message is don't clutter up your life unecesarily. It's oppressive and will cause guilt/stress/pain rather than being uplifting. So keep the specific things you want and allow yourself to clear out the rest of the mass.

Thanking your clothes and possessions is a central principle. Of course it sounds a bit woo and feels a bit odd at first, but the reason it works is because it's designed to allow you to appreciate that item and the use you have had for it, or the vision you had when you first bought it. There's no need to hang on to it,though, if it's now not suitable, or no longer works well, or no longer fits. So a positive affirmation like that is helpful in giving yourself permission to let it go without guilt and without fear of losing the happy memories you might attach to it.

These are all things that many, if not all, hoarders and clutter-gatherers suffer very badly with - guilt, fear, anxiety, sadness, hating waste, and using things as a physical representation of a wish, hope, vision or memory. Most of all, not dealing well with the idea of letting things go.

Worth a read, worth a try

Soup I've not ripped pages or thanked my clothes - too woo

I more reminisced which could be seen as similar though

Some people find the idea of ripping pages out of books quite sacrilegious. But for the sort of person who finds it hard to part with hundreds and hundreds of books because they like the way that certain paragraph is written or they once found that particular concept helpful in addressing an issue, or might someday need that specific recipe etc, I think it's a good idea.

It's a shit idea. The good idea would be to photograph/scan the relevant part. Anything else is simply wasteful.

I had the book in my Amazon basket and am now glad I read the negative reviews (which are often more informative than the positive ones). Thanking possessions and destroying books? I don't think so.

Yes, if that aspect doesn't appeal, I would just change the way you frame it. The central principle remains the same - if an item doesn't bring you joy now (really, truly, properly) then it's fulfilled its purpose. Reminisce and then let it go.

If you can't bring yourself to remove a page from a book then you either choose to keep the whole book because it still brings you joy now, in the present, not in memory of the past or in anticipation of the future, or you decide that you no longer need or want it and choose to let it go.

No need to be overly woo about it if that's not your style. I'm not a woo person at all but I've used the principles to great effect.