yet another argument about DP's hoarding. How do I deal with it?

[UnderThePile]

Today's argument was triggered when I asked him to go through his spice collection as I can't fit any shopping in the kitchen. We have a rotating spice rack, he has had it for over 5 years (must be past their use by) it's an enormous contraption, holds about 25 jars, I despise it. In addition, an enitire kitchen cupboard is full of spices. It's ridiculous. We will never eat enough food to use them all! I don't understand it.

The house of full of crap. Not only his, granted, but he has the main collection of crap! He seems to collect clothes, shoes, leaflets, bits of paper, ugly ornaments, magazines, kitchen utensils, DVDs... The list goes on. He's a huge consumer. I think it stems from his mother. She has a large house full of things she has bought that she will never use. Rooms are unusable due to her hoard. I am terrified we are going to end up the same.

I hate clutter. It takes forever to clean around it all, the house always looks a tip, I am allergic to dust and I blame the piles of his stuff for my constant sniffling and sneezing. I don't have time or the motivation to dust his shit everyday!

One of our small rooms is full of stuff. Some of it is useful stuff eg.the vacuum cleaner, steam cleaner, ironing board. The rest of it is untouched, unused bits and pieces. These bits and pieces take up 4 large shelves and two thirds of the floor. It's depressing.

He's excruciatingly sentimental. Holds on to cinema tickets, day out tickets, useless receipts, leaflets, business cards. The loft is full of towels, clothes, shoes, books, all of which he "may need one day". He even has wage slips from 8 years ago. His mother also saves EVERYTHING. Every bit of schoolwork and craft he has ever done. It seems genetic!

I want to spring clean. I don't want to have to clean piles, move piles and re-pile piles to clean!

He never gets rid of anything. When I bring it up, we argue. Why do hoarders hoard? Is there a way to stop the arguments and get a happy, clutter free home?

I think (having skimmed the thread, sorry) that what might help is to get some large boxes, shoe boxes or plastic ones or whatever, as many as you can, and sort the things out into groups of each item.

Then he may begin to see that he has too many.

This is approaching it from a POV of wanting to sort it, ignoring the fact you may not want to try this, as it may not work and it isn't your job to anyway.

Will go and read thread now. (ps - I buy - or bought - too many things as well. This technique works for me to some extent)

Not read the whole thread yet but just wanted to say you have my sympathies.

Dh is a hoarder but he is improving. He tidied the sitting room at the weekend and looked positively minimalist.
He should really confront why he hoards

I could bloody tell him though, all his family hoard, he was seriously ill as a child a struggles with socialising (actually very good in social situations but the idea if new people freaks him out). His parents have always been wary of new people and don't have friends. So I think dh has replaced friends with stuff

Anyway rant over, what really helped him/me was inviting people over. He really hates people seeing the house in a mess.
So every now and then I invite some of dd's friends round (she's 4) or I invite my parents over.

I feel a bit guilty shaming him into it but it works and if he's not prepared to address the cause of the issue this is the best I can do.

Well yes, that would work too. I can't recall why she specifies keeping the physical page. I didn't pay all that much attention because I have long since got over my need to keep hundreds and hundreds of books so it didn't really apply to me.

I do think it's important not to treat it like a religion - she's not a perfect guru whose pronouncement have to be followed to the letter. Take what works and leave the rest. But if some of it appeals give the overall method a go because it's very effective, especially to people who are hopelessly sentimental about their things.

If you don't need the book and have already decided against it then it's not right for you and buying it would go against the whole thing anyway

The physical page thing may have something to do with the idea that although nobody wants to waste things and it's definitely better to recycle where you can and let others have use of your things when you no longer need them, lots of people are stuck because they're so frightened of waste but they also quite can't get around to actually processing things in such a way that recycling is a viable option. So year after year all those things sit there and bring no one any joy and in fact only add to the overall oppressiveness. In that case, they're already being wasted. Their physical presence in your house, if you never, ever use them and actually haven't got round to reading them again or whatever, is no less wasteful. They're not bringing joy.

I've got rid of loads of things. Most of them recycled, sold or given to charity. But the odd item here and there - and if I even had a load of items this would still apply IMO - that I have to throw away because it's the most realistic and viable option, I'm not going to feel guilty. It would be better not to have to throw it out, but in the grand scheme of things it has to go and if that's the only way to get it done, I'm okay with it.

Once you learn that you don't need things to be happy, you end up quite averse to acquisition for the sake of it, so your consumerism slows down and you become much more mindful of what you actually want or need. This then, over the rest of your life, will hopefully offset any waste you perpetuated whilst clearing out.

I agree this can become a mental health issue. Could you afford to get in a professional de-clutter with his agreement. Or failing that start with one room. Say kitchen. All clutter and rubbish to be taken out of kitchen over a period of time. Say a month.

So many helpful replies. Just wanted to check in to say I haven't disappeared under a pile. Had a v busy morning. The house, as ever, is a mess so need to get to work sorting it.

Living separately is not an option. We have a 6 year old (who also has too much stuff, something I'm working on this week). I am going to order the Kondo book right now and look into the hoarder documentaries and literature.

I am now analysing him to see if I can pinpoint what in his life may have triggered this behaviour. I really, really don't want to end up like his parents. We don't have space, our house is bursting at the seams, if we had a house as large as theirs, maybe things would be that bad. Scary thought.

holger he definitely thinks things make you happy. I don't. In fact, I strongly don't!

We had this out a few years ago and since then, his buying has slowed. But he refuses to part with anything he already had. He does seem of the opinion that a better car, a bigger TV, more shoes etc will make him happier. He has definitely picked this up from his mother.

(It could also be a rather clever tool of manipulation in aid of the greater good - given that the average committed book lover would be loath to deface a book, it's likely that in reaction they would be far more committed to the idea of maybe, just maybe, actually getting rid of some of those unneeded books if it means they get to stay intact )

But again, if the idea doesn't appeal there's no need to buy it. In a year's time, if you've not made much headway (or the person for whom you were thinking to buy it, whichever the case may be), it might be worth a go

I think some hoarders would secretly like everything sorted for them but it's the actual doing it that themselves that stops them.

I hoarded (slightly) clothes. Ended up breaking my arm when I moved in with DP. He unpacked my clothes as I couldn't. Well, I say unpacked, he kept what he liked on me and ditched everything else - before the cries of EA and control, it needed doing.

Could the spice rack have an 'accident'? Replace with a core of 5 basics and wait for him to notice.

Be careful about trying to solve the problem for him (eg trying to work out what's at the root of it). if it is his MH that's the issue you can try to help him see it, not enable him and so on, but he will need to be willing to see the problem and try to address it himself. All you can do is set boundaries for you and the DC in terms of what you are willing to live with.

In terms of the "zones" idea it seems fair for OP and their DC for the H to have just one room for his stuff, possibly the spare room, plus some fairly accessible storage space. The living room and kitchen and your and DC's bedroom could be clutter-free.

There are lots of strategies that work but if you don't solve the root cause the mess just comes back. It's also unwise to tidy things too quickly.

Agree about photographing things.

Soup - that's one tiny tiny tiny element of the book (only one paragraph in a whole book!). Yes I agree tearing up books and thanking possession is a naff idea (for me anyway) but the actual core of the book and all the other suggestions in it are totally amazing, inspiring and very effective. The book is about how to declutter and from the positive reviews you can see how effective it is. You can't write off a book completely because of one paragraph about tearing pages out

Photographing things is something I always recommend, it seems to really help on big bulky items for example. So a buggy or rocking horse, let's say. Very sentimental for lots of people and hard to get rid of. You said you have two buggies he's going to want to hang on to...

So, take one or two last photos of your dc with the item (Especially good if they demonstrate clearly that the child definitely has grown out of them) and let your DH check to make sure he's happy with the pics. Then bring the item to a charity shop straight away, as soon as you can. DON'T fall into the trap of keeping it to sell, as it will sit there for ages and you will lose the momentum of the moment.

Same with artwork, school projects, cutesy bedroom decor that they've grown out of - a photographic representation might help him to be ok with letting the item go.

It's very true though you can't really fix it for him. But the more often you help him to make small steps of getting rid and being able to do so without the extreme anxiety he's frightened of, the more he will hopefully build up his own understanding that he can do it. A bit of support is ok, just don't end up managing it for him.

I'm about two thirds through the kondo book. She doesn't really suggest ripping pages out if books. She used this as a method to allow herself to get rid of books she previously couldn't and then realised she never looked at the pages she'd saved. The message is that she should have got rid of it all in the first place. It is quite woo, I wonder if a lot of it is cultural/a translation issue. I think there's some good ideas in the book, I'm not sure if it'd work for a serious hoarder but it couldn't hurt for the OP to get it.

Last comment on the book I promise (at least for now) - I would especially discount negative reviews if they only review their first impression on reading it and don't actually mentioning going through the process. Because then they've not actually reviewed the method at all.

Mention*

One thing that really struck me is that some items have painful memories/attachments and getting rid of them really helped me to move on.

I also found it easier to either sell items, give items to friends, recycle items, charity shop items rather then putting them in a skip because they would still be valuable/useful to others

Yes absolutely it's hugely important that wherever possible someone else can benefit from an item you no longer want or need.

OP kondo talks about sunk costs. When you've bought something and it's just pointless clutter. Kondo says the joy was only in buying the object and not keeping it.

Luckily I dont live with a hoarder but as mentioned previously my father is a serious hoarder.

I am sorry if I come across as rather harsh but I dont hear much about the effect on the person who lives with a hoarder. Its all about the hoarder and what they are feeling. It would be a compelte deal breaker for me.

There seems little in the way of cure. I have seen some of the programmes and its painful to watch.

I do agree though with a pp who said its not that you are right and they are wrong. The hoarder just doesnt see what you see. From my fathers point of view and due to his personality which has seen off my mother and various other women its up to HIM how he lives. He says he is sorting out slowly but its clear he has done little.

He doesnt want to. So, as a family we have decided to leave him to it.

As mentioned previously - it is likely to end in tragedy. He knows that but says its for the family to sort out once he has gone.

I refuse now to worry about it. I couldnt live like that. He chooses that lifestyle so - so be it.

Yes Hillingdon you are right of course. It isn't likely to change. But OP can do what she can to make life better for herself in the meantime, and maybe support her DH in coming to terms with the fact that he has a problem and needs to fix it. He might never come to that realisation. Maybe at some point she'll decide it's a deal breaker for her too. But she can improve things for herself and her child until such a time.

I'm sure there's a support thread somewhere for relatives of hoarders and especially for those who live with a hoarder, but I guess I could be wrong. Haven't found it yet.

The book is about how to declutter and from the positive reviews you can see how effective it is.

I usually find the negative ones far more informative (this goes for anything) as they tend to point out the things I might find wrong. I can then decide if those are likely to be a problem. Often positive reviews are skewed by people who have bought into it completely and just say useless things like "It was amazing!" which is no help. The negative ones often specifically explain why they didn't like something.

I have decided that this book is no for me.

Yes, he would be angry if you threw away his stuff because he wants control over it all.

You can't throw it away, but you can help him to re-organise it and reclaim your own spaces.
Hoarders feel overwhelmed. They can't make decisions.
One day, put up a large gazebo outside, or use the garage (if it's empty that is!) or hire a storage unit for a very limited time. Whilst he's out (he has to be out) empty a whole room for yourself, be it living room, dining room, study, kitchen, whatever.

For your own sanity, you need your own space.
He'll come back and be angry or unreasonable but it will be worth it. Tell him he can only being the stuff back in if he finds space other than your cleared area. Don't cave in if he's says he's worried about it being stolen or rain soaked and can he just put it back in the same place and 'sort it out later' because that's what he's been doing already, leaving it to sort later.

My disclaimer is that I lived with a hoarder and the consequences I had to suffer for even moving a plant pot from one window to another were extreme. I couldn't have done the above as it was his house.

Eventually after a couple of years living in that house, his brother evicted him (they jointly owned it under probate) and the threat of his belongings being forcibly removed and tipped unless he vacated under court under put a firework under his ass and He showed his was capable of sorting, organising and selectively de-junking.

He needs help with the momentum.

That's my advice anyway. You either have the upheaval of such a drastic measure or live with it. It can't be resolved piece by piece, de-junking in little amounts combined with reasoning. That just doesn't work with hoarders.

Good luck, OP.

I think one of the problems is that many people on this thread are approaching this as if the pile of stuff is the OPs.

OPs dh must need to sort it, before it will get sorted. That fundamental key needs addressing, it may be a conversation with op will be a starting point, or it may need professional help, but nagging, clearing your own stuff, forceably remove it - none of this hit the core - dh has to see it is a problem.

My friend's husband collects things because they make him feel safe. Possessions around him makes him feel as if he has a place in the world, as if he has a visible presence because of all his stuff. It is no coincidence that he is adopted.

On one of the hoarders programmes, they talked about special things with good memories that couldn't be seen or enjoyed because they were in a box, so one of the things they do is encourage people to get a display cupboard or some shelves or photo frames, and display their special stuff properly so they can enjoy it, that was very successful strategy.

Holger - Yes of course. They need to make things better for themselves. I do like the idea of having a messy room (one where they can hoard everything). Its what was the rule when my mother was with my father. It was a horrible room and I can still see it now 40 years later in my head. Old furniture, piles of newspapers.

Of course she didnt leave because of his hoarding but it cannot have helped. He now lives on his own and its become out of control. He would quite like a lady friend. He is lonely but he refuses to see its all down to him (he also sadly isnt a particularly pleasant person).

He had a friend last year who saw the mess and said it was deal breaker. He said she could like it or lump it. She cleary lumped it and he never saw her again