Why children go to school

[HSMM]

Had a very interesting debate at my OU tutorial this week about why children go to school. The tutor wrote 'school' up on the whiteboard and then had lots of lines going off it saying things like socialisation, qualifications, etc. When everyone had finished shouting out, he went through each thing and we had to decide if it was accessible without going to school and he wiped off the ones which were. At the end, the only 2 reasons he had left for children going to school were:

1. To keep them off the streets
2. So their parents can go to work I am considering HE my DD, so found this backed me up. The other students were very shocked and still could not agree, even though the evidence was in front of them!

I should like to ask a series of questions of any teachers on this thread, I think it may help both sides to understand each others viewpoint better (eek!)

Do you think it is necessary for parents to have adopted a particular philosophy regarding the role and purpose of education before they send their children to school? What proportion of parents do you feel have asked themselves what does the word education mean for me/my family? To what degree will this particular school/sending them to school, assist us in achieving our particular ideas re our specific educational outcomes? What outcomes would best suit my child? What are our educational values?

Of course most parents desire to send their children to a good school which will enable them to at least pass their GCSE's etc. But this is what I consider the basic underlying thought most parents have, the largely assumed role of education by society en masse if you like. What about beyond that?

The reason i'm asking is because I feel a great many parents simply go with the flow and send their children to school without really asking themselves these questions. I did too. It is simply usually asssumed. You know you want a 'good' school. You know you want an enthusiastic teacher. But for many I think it stops there. I never asked myself why is this school good? Do great sats = good school? Is passing GCSE's representative of a 'good education?'

There has been a price for this and teachers and children are then ones feeling it. Teachers do not always receive the backing of parents re things like NC or Sats for eg. Gov can bring in measures without much opposition because parents (and I know there are some that speak out I was one of them)on the whole are not thinking actively about what they really need and want in education.

So teachers often get blamed for failing standards - which is convenient for the gov - and some parents do not see educational responsibility beyond school, they expect teachers to do everything. The children that do well in school usually have parents who have asked themselves what they want from school. Whether conciously or not they adopt a PHSY. in which school at that moment fits. This is when I think school works best.

To HE, whatever the catalyst was, requires a parent to adopt a personal philosophy re education. Once they have determined this philosophy they tend to put it into practice and find it in most cases very rewarding. If they thought school would fit in with that PHSY, they would send them. But many have found as I did, that instead of fitting in with their PHSY school obstructed it. This is because my ED PHSY had now differed from that adopted by Gov/head of school.

As I have said I think 'Education' is a very broad term like the word 'Art' and is more than capable of accommodating many approaches which can all be valid.

I'm glad for the debate because not only does it make me assess my own ideas of education but it proves that everyone should be thinking about it more.

Have to go out now!

I think that the wonderful thing is that people have the freedom to do what they want to do in education. For some that is paying for private education, for some it is single sex, for some it is selection, for some it is state schools (even if they can afford other choices), for some it is compehensive education and others HE. One size doesn't suit all. The fact that I don't like selective education doesn't mean that it should be abolished.
I am glad that other people didn't see the OP as asking for support, I saw it as an open question and it needs view points from a wide range of people. If people can't see the point of schools in the first place it isn't very meaningful to ask the question.

I think that HSMM was just giving reassurance (for any HEor who might need it) in the op. The message being that, yes things in school are accessible without going to school. This would be reassuring because for some, there are plenty of people to tell them how they are depriving their children of so many things by not sending them to school. To someone new to HE, this can be a bit unnerving(to say the least) So in that respect, I suppose, it could originally have been intended as support.

However, I think it morphed into something very interesting.

In answer to 2kidsandi

I know exactly what I want a school to provide for my DC. I have my own philosophy of education-I haven't got time to go into it now as I'm just about to go out.
I take no notice of SATs results or league tables, I use the OFSTED as a starting point and overall view only. I am not interested in other parents views-they can be way out of date. The only way is to go on a normal working day and see it, warts and all. There are lots of things I look for-no time at the moment to list them. I ask questions. Once there, I act as a partnership with the teachers and I am 'pushy' in a nice way (I hope). If I'm not happy I discuss it with the teacher. I get the best out of the system.

I am very happy with the results. My DSs are older, and I have 3 well adjusted DCs who have been able to follow their choices in life. Quite probably we could have done this at home on our own-we will never know.

I answer to an earlier post-I think that primary school teaching is much harder than people think! It is assumed that reception is easy because 'all they do is play'-as a teacher I find this group the hardest.

Well you've all jumped to a defensive position again. I didn't say don't post - how rude of you to put those words in my mouth. And I did say that it can be interesting to have the debate.

It's just clear from the 1001 of these type threads that I've read that there's always one or two that come on with the intention of doing nothing but writing a few insulting posts and a not listening to anything that is written in reply. THOSE people I have a problem with.

And I do think if I went into the primary or secondary forums and told everyone how against schools I was I would be rounded on (and I'm not btw).

Message withdrawn

Hmmm, I suppose I am

Someones choices would depend on how necessary or relevant to them they consider those things are.
Which is probably why some choose school and some choose HE and some choose both for different children.

I think that the bottom line is that going to school isn't essential for every child.

2kidzandi - good post. I don't see evidence here that teachers really think about the purpose of education - what parents, children and society in general need to get from it and whether that can be delivered in schools as they are now. If they do see the odd problem with the system they blame it on things like staffing levels, over -prescription, lack of parental support or anything other than considering whether the system as it stands is unworkable.

There are some things that are easier to get in schools - like social interaction and team sports. There are some things that are easier to get in home education, especially the tailoring of your education to your ability, interests and different learning styles. Some parents aren't able to make a free choice because they don't have the confidence to home educate or need to work.

It would be nice to see some recognition of the advantages of both systems and a discussion about achieving a system that would draw on the best of both types of education. It doesn't strengthen confidence in the educational system that it isn't possible to have that sort of discussion with teachers.

Message withdrawn

I hope that you aren't classing me as writing insulting posts butterball, I have listened to everyone and replied; 2kidsandi, in particular had interesting points.
I love discussing education and quite frankly it gets a bit boring with my friends who tend to have the same views as me-much more interesting to have these discussions with people who have radically different views. I think it does me good to have my views challenged and I think it is good for HEers to have alternate views.
I am for comprehensive, mixed sex, state education and so I have most interesting debates with those who favour fee paying, selective, single sex schools. It never gets so defensive as HE threads.

I guess HEers are defensive because their choice is so much more out of the norm - I don't know what sort of %, but it must be relatively low. Personally I have never met anyone who has either been HEd or is HEing, whereas I know plenty of people who have been (or are using) private school, or religious schools, or single sex schools, or even boarding school (another small minority). Of course that might be because I meet most people through work, and maybe the HE community are less likely to talk about education because they don't feel they will get a good response. Then the HE community most in the public eye is the US Christian right, so that sets up a view of HEers as being slightly nuts, which I expect is unhelpful.

The trouble is that polarized positions rarely sway anyone's opinions. I come away from this thread thinking that HEers seem to be living in a slightly idyllic world and have a serious dislike of teachers and those who choose not to HE. I guess in a lot of ways it is rather similar to the religion/atheism threads, an enjoyable debate, but ultimately a waste of time.

Oh and pisces, I totally agree with your post of Fri 17-Apr-09 14:27:34.

ds tells me Home Education is "torture" (you can see the TV but not watch it was his reasoning) but that he thinks no school and no education would be the best. He has a short memory!

I asked dd and she tells me the new boy in her class has been home schooled for a year and just returned (apparently because it was too expensive - sounds like he had a tutor). So there we are I do know of someone who has been home schooled. dd thinks HE would be delightful, although again she has forgotten that we tried it and they both said they were bored and begged to go to school!

No, piscesmoon, you have debated and kept coming back and explaining your views. The ones that annoy the hell out of me are the ones that run in, post a load of nonsense personal opinion but give it as fact then bugger off and don't come back to read any responses.

BTW I'm not anti school. I loved school and even begged to go in when ill (even when I had shingles!!). I am home educating for the first few years as I believe 4/5 is too young then after that they'll go to school (almost definitely but we'll see how things go...). I see the positives and negatives of both HE and school, I just wish everyone else could rather than running down either one.

"I come away from this thread thinking that HEers seem to be living in a slightly idyllic world and have a serious dislike of teachers and those who choose not to HE."

It's a shame we're giving that impression - it's certainly not what I feel. My world isn't idyllic, by any means. But I feel it's better than it would be if my children were in school because school just doesn't in any way fit with our beliefs about parenting and about how children learn. If the children want to go to school, then they can go, but I'm not going to force them to. I don't dislike teachers, otherwise I would dislike my mum and the uncle I'm closest to - my mum is an experienced SENCO and my uncle has taught secondary school English all around the world - they are both our strongest supporters of how we are choosing to educate our children. Oh, as is my FIL who is a psychotherapist dealing with adults who have been f**cked up by their childhood (not necessarily by school, I hasten to add, but by not being respected and taken seriously by their parents).

I also don't dislike people who choose not to HE. I feel sad that so many people either don't get the choice, because they either don't know about it, or because they feel it's only something that hippies and teachers can do, and that you have to be rich, and that you have to teach your children school-style. If you know all that and believe it and just don't want to HE, then you have my full support.

I feel the same about bfing - I'm a passionate supporter of bfing, but I don't hate formula feeders, I just hate it that so many women don't have the choice for so many different reasons.

It was the assumption that most parents didn't really think about education when choosing schools/educational approaches, and that all teachers really know that school is "not ideal", and that in some HEers feel that any teacher who doesn't agree with their approach doesn't "have a good understanding of how children learn" that made me feel there was antipathy to teacher/non HEing parents.

I personally think that HE appeals to a fairly narrow group of parents, where one or both parents can opt out of work pretty much forever (if returning to work after a five year gap is hard, how much harder after a 15/20 year gap), so yes wealth has to play some part; where a parents educational level has to be high enough for them to have the confidence and interest to support their child's learning and development; where they are able to link into a HE network to provide breadth of learning/experience/companionship; and where both parent and child(ren) enjoy each other's company and can teach/learn together in a positive manner without getting very cross with each other, and feeling restricted or constrained.

Most people would only have to think about the above circumstances fairly fleetingly to know it was not for them. Now it could be that I am totally wrong about all of the above, but I would still imagine it would only be exceptional families for whom HE works.

Nooka are you still around?

Sorry if i'm being annoying, but I've just read about your personal experience of HE. I was just wondering if, when you decided to HE, you had heard of unschooling or deschooling as it's sometomes called (a period of time possibly lasting from any of a few weeks to several months) wherein children are in essence left alone to get used to the idea of being more in charge of their education?

I ask this because many parents starting HE have similar frustrations to what you experienced. They find their DCs just want to watch TV, or play games. I know I was frantic when all my efforts to get my ds excited about books I wanted him to read, places I wanted him to go were rebuffed quite viciously! I had to be told (sometimes quite severely) to let him be by other HE'ers. 6 months of gnashing my teeth and things are better i.e. he is showing interest in watching the docs, looking at books, etc.

I'd also like to ask (if I may) what your original reasons for embarking on HE were and what did you expect as your outcomes?

You say you were not a good teacher. whilst not nescessarily agreeing/disagreeing with you - after all I don't know you - I say that at least you had the confidence to try, some wouldn't have, and you are probably great at showing your DC things that perhaps others are not and vice versa and if you say "I tried HE and I didn't like it, it didn't work for us, it wasn't the wonderful fantastic exp. I always read about." Then that is valid and if anything it made school a descision of informed choice for your family.

Some have not had the negative experience of HE you unfortunately had and they can only speak from their experience as you have.

Well it was a response to circumstances rather than a choice to some extent, and only ever intended to be a stop gap. We moved to New York about a year ago, and didn't have the time to scout in advance, so knew we would be in a temporary position for a few months (schools in NYC are strictly on a catchment criteria). I also had to wait at least three months for a working visa (very slow bureaucracy) so we knew we would all be at home together for some time. We also suspected that the new school system would be different, and that it would help the children to look at the new curriculum and to learn some American history. I guess if I'd been happy to find the educational aspects of Pokemon things might have been easier! I also found splitting my attention between two children with completely different interests and needs very difficult.

The reason why I think I am a bad teacher is because I am impatient, get bored easily, and have a tendency to start in the middle when it comes to explanations. Also having watched ds's specialist tutor at work (this was for synthetic phonics, where a parent is required to be involved) I was totally aware that he reacted totally differently to her, and how much skill and knowledge was involved.

I had to look back nooka to see what I wrote yesterday that you liked! I see that it was why I don't HE. I actually love being a teacher, or to be precise I love working with the DCs, I don't like the paper work that goes with it. It sounds dreadful to say but I think I would be bored with HE!
I think classes are too big, but I think that you need at least 16 children to get the best out of them. Between 16 and 20 is my ideal.
Last year I had my dream job with a class of 18 yr5s for numeracy and literacy. The work produced was fantastic. They sparked each other off with ideas.It was exciting. One boy wrote a 28 page story (I was able to get away from the NC)that was the best writing I have ever seen from a 10 yr old. They wrote me letters at the end saying how much they enjoyed it and what fun it was, and I knew they were genuine-they were full of 'in' jokes that no one else would have understood. When a mother tells you that her DD was shaking with the excitement of the work, you know you are succeeding!
I can have a bad day and think 'Am I cut out for the job?' ,but on a good day when a DC suddenly gets something, it becomes the best job in the world!
One thing about it is that I am never ever bored. I think that with just my own DCs I would be bored and would I, as Mum, be able to inspire them to want to write 28 pages of imaginative story? I think, as mentioned by niecie earlier,that I am too emotionally involved.
I am very impressed with all of you that have DCs that want to learn and are eager ,but I am afraid that mine would argue and want to play computer games, long after what you could possibly call 'de schooling'-I don't know whether this is my fault or theirs -but they wouldn't want to write or do anything that required effort, so I am just grateful that someone else got them to do it! DS2 and I have both agreed that if I was teaching him one of us would have killed the other!!
DS1 was the most likely to succeed with me, because he was an only DC for a long time and used to adult company-but that was a good reason for him mixing more with his own age group.
Sorry- waffling on here! I don't think every adult can do it and I don't think every DC is cut out for it either. It may well work for you and your DCS. I see it, as its best, as suiting a confident, sociable DC who is self motivated, opinionated and eager to learn and doesn't like direction-or the opposite- one who has been failed by the school system. I am not sure that it suits what I have-very lazy boys!!

I know why my dd goes to school:

as a child with a chronic pain disorder she simply wouldn't have the physical stamina to be out and about enough to access all the different friends, wide variety of different adults with different interests, different activities that she seems to think she needs every day.

I did suggest HE when she was particularly bad and she pointed out that I need a job to go to and a set of colleagues to meet up with for my mental wellbeing, so why should I think she was any different?

HE is no doubt fine if you have good health and preferably a parent who can drive to get you to meet-ups. But she would end up isolated and she knows it.

She combines the need to socialise every day with a body that can only cope with one short taxi journey. And I will never be able to drive.

I would add that being at school is very obviously a good experience for dd. She thrives on it, she hates it when she has to stay off.

Pisces - I think I have boys like yours.

Left to their own devices they would flit from computer to telly and back again. They need the discipline of formal learning and they don't need me getting shirty with them when they don't do anything remotely useful or educational for days on end! It could easily degenerate into endless rounds of me moaning and them whinging.

Neither of them showed any inclination to learn to read or write before starting school and I would have pulling my hair out worrying about them. The ability to read seems to be so fundemental to learning, particularly if children are supposed to be learning autonomously.

I also agree with Cory's view on SN children. My DS1 has SN which are by no means as severe as Cory's DD but I think school provides help that it would be a struggle for me to access by myself. As he has AS I also think that continuous exposure to a class of children is helpful to him. He also craves a timetable and goals. He needs to know when he has to start something and when it is going to end. If he doesn't have that he asks for it until you give him that. School provides that structure.

As I have repeatedly said I don't think there is anything wrong with HE but I do think it doesn't suit all children and parents and that is not a failing on their part or a lack of imagination and confidence as some of you seem to think. It would be too much of a gamble for me to remove DS1 from everything he knows to see if he could change the way he thinks and learns. DS2 would probably muddle through but I don't see how I could accommodate one child who needs a rigid structure to learn and whilst the other was left to learn autonomously.

Hmmmm. Perhaps I should re-post this on a school forum ..... or not!