Why children go to school

[HSMM]

Had a very interesting debate at my OU tutorial this week about why children go to school. The tutor wrote 'school' up on the whiteboard and then had lots of lines going off it saying things like socialisation, qualifications, etc. When everyone had finished shouting out, he went through each thing and we had to decide if it was accessible without going to school and he wiped off the ones which were. At the end, the only 2 reasons he had left for children going to school were:

1. To keep them off the streets
2. So their parents can go to work I am considering HE my DD, so found this backed me up. The other students were very shocked and still could not agree, even though the evidence was in front of them!

If I had committed to HEing my DCs for the whole of their school life it would have taken me 23 years!! I don't think I could have kept fresh and enthusiastic for that length of time.
My SIL has been doing it for 15 yrs and has 5 more years to go, She is quite open in that she is bored with it and wants to do other things. As her eldest says 'it is a bit sad for xxxx'. She was full of enthusiasm when she started.
If you have one DC ,or those close in age, it is easier- but it is definitely something to bear in mind when they are only 5 yrs old.

Can't everyone just say it's like comparing strawberry pavlova and chocolate cheesecake? ie. very little in common!!

I have just read all the posts and feel that the HE ers are very defensive as are the schoolers. As a primary teacher I have been most offended by the dismissive tone of the schoolers (the anyone can do primary curriculum but secondary - whoah!) and feel like handing in my notice forthwith!! Why did I train for 4 years if any old bod can do it???

I would certainly home ed my DC if I felt there were extenuating circumstances but, obviously as a teacher I am bound to feel that school is preferable where possible. What concerns me - and I have very dear friends that HE - is that in swimming against the tide the HEers could be passing on their own anxieties/bad experiences/strongly held beliefs on their children who, as young children, have no choice.
Yes those in school do the same but it is the norm....

Optimisticmumma, I am both a school teacher and a home educator, and I don't think that any home educator here is saying that just anyone could teach in school. You and I trained for 4 years because the skills needed for teaching in school are nothing like those needed to HE. Teaching a class of 30 children requires something entirely different. When I first started HEing my children, I had to unlearn so much about teaching! Teaching like you do it in school just does not work in home. Home education just looks so different to school education, and I'm still having to unlearn stuff now!

I came to HE with no anti-school stance. I think schools try hard to be good places for children, but are very restricted in what they can do by government directives. I always worked hard for the happiness, interest in learning and welfare of the children in my class.But having seen both sides of the coin, I think home ed is by far the preferable option for those who are willing to do it. My children are so confident, so self assured and so happy compared to a lot of their peers. We do lots of activities with schooled children and they never have a problem fitting in. Their friends think they are very lucky, not weird!

My children are 13 and 9 and they have lots of their own opinions on things! My youngest decided to become a staunch vegetarian all of her own accord - none of the rest of us are vegetarian. She campaigns for all sorts of animal rights things which do not come from me at all. She was recently in Lush discussing cosmetics testing on animals - this is absolutely nothing to do with me and nothing I have ever suggested to her.

For those who say that children should meet all sorts, not just those vetted by parents, they have never seen the diversity of children at a home ed group! My youngest has one friend in particular who would not be entirely my taste, if I am honest, but she must make her own decisions in life. The family have quite different values to us in some areas and it makes for good discussions on issues, just as it might with school friends. I see home educated children a lot and I don't see them being indoctrinated en masse by their parents. What I do see is children who have time to think for themselves and research into issues. In this way I think they are far more able to hold their own beliefs about the world than children who are limited to what is taught in school. Children have no choice over what is taught in school the National Curriculum is so full of government-driven beliefs and objectives. I have been teaching in schools for 20 years and what we are required to teach has changed so much in that time, driven by what the government wants us to learn. Home educated children are free from all that.

Actaully optimisticmumma as one of the ones who said they could see why it would be a good option at primary but not at secondary that wasn't what I was saying at all, I was agreeing that maybe a curriculum for primary is a little rigid and in the case of automomous learning I think this would suit primary school aged children more.

"At the end of the day, as it's been said before, the choice about how to educate your child depends on what is right for that child."

But I don't think that should be the only motivation and you have to make sure that you are not educating your child at home because it's the right thing to do for you.

I still feel, despite reading all the HE posts, that to do HE well you have to have the ability to teach, and teaching doesn't have to be just reciting facts to children in a classroom or out. I bet FillyJonk would have made an excellent teacher in the classroom as well. I also think that HE works for the people that do it because the people who do it are the ones enthusiastic about it (naturally) and unfortunatly some of the people who could benefit from it (i.e. the one to one attention) will probably not come from a background where HE is possible.

I'm also going to revise my intial sentence of disagreeing with HE. In some circumstances then HE might be the best option but I think the decision to do it should be based on more than what is best for the child.

Is there any sort of regulation of HE?

"I think that my problem is that I want to be taught, automomous learning doesn't suit me."

Piscesmoon - if you asked your parents to send you to school because you liked being taught, and they sent you, then you are learning autonomously! You are in charge of how you learn. The biggest point to make is that the children of HEors (or of people open to HE) have the choice - the autonomy.

If the parent gets bored of it, then send them to school! If you decide to HE, you don't have to do it forever.

Comparethemeerkat - your personal experience is really interesting, thank you. Makes me even more determined not to do school-at-home (as if my children would let me!)

Optimistic mumma - you say "obviously as a teacher I am bound to feel that school is preferable where possible" but I know a lot of teachers who choose to HE from the outset, and a good few who say they wish they'd HEd their children. I personally think that any teacher worth their salt would see that school education is not ideal, and often worry that the ones who are firmly against HE (which I can see you're not) really don't have a good understanding of how children learn, and are very arrogant to think that children will only learn if they are taught by the trained teachers.

Libra:

I can't think of any other motivation other than HE being right for the child - I'm not sure I understand what you're saying.

Also, re autonomous learning - this is such a misunderstood concept. It doesn't mean that children are never taught anything, it means they are in control of how they learn things - if that's in school, then fine. If that's workbooks and lessons at home, then fine. If that's workbooks one day at home, and playing with robots the next day, then fine too. Do you see what I'm saying?

Regulation of HE - Local Authorities are meant to be sure that every child is receiving an education, but other than that there is no regulation at the moment, although looks like there might be soon - that's a whole other debate though....think it's been done within the last couple of months too if you have a look back in the home ed section. Actually, I have a feeling it was in another topic - will look it out.

try here

gws I do understand what you mean about automomous learning however going on what I was like as a teenager and my friends we would have probably spent the time at home watching neighbours and home&away, the education being australian culture.

The child shouldn't be the only motivation because I don't think all adults would be good at HE as I have said on here I think an adult does have to have the ability to teach whether they call it that or not to HE and not every adult has that ability.

I also think there should be regulation.

Ah but Libra, you were school educated...

Anyway, for those who want to hear from teens/adults who were HEd:

Two accounts here

One here

Will see if I can find some more.

gws I was a lazy teenager, which is incredible common, and no I don't think that can be blamed on the educational system. I think HE might suit some children and school education might suit others. I am also sure we can find reports from teens/adults who were HE and hated it.

I tried to HE my children for a month or two when we moved to the US and hadn't decided where to live yet. It was not successful. I am a very poor teacher! Given the choice my children showed very clearly that they did not wish to learn from me, even when I offered to read them things I thought were highly interesting and relevant to their new lives (or their old for that matter). With many educational books around they chose to watch crap on the TV. With many educational web-sites they chose to play stupid games. I got very frustrated and they fought each other a fair bit. We ended up doing incredibly little of any use, apart from some nice walks in the country, where they didn't learn very much, although they enjoyed some good fights with sticks. We were all much happier when we found an excellent school for them.

To me the descriptions of homeschooling sound incredibly idyllic and very unlikely (note I am not suggesting they are made up). And the idea that the only benefits of school are childcare rather offensive. I can see that many of the things listed as benefits of school could be replicated at least to some degree by a very active parent working very hard to achieve them, but then I think that some of the listed benefits of HE appear to be able to be achievable both at school and in the many hours when children are not at school too - many things one can and should do as a parent to encourage and share interests.

Personally I enjoy reading about things very much, but I really engage when I meet an expert and they show their passion and how they really live and breathe that subject.

Plus I would have absolutely hated to be taught by my mother - indeed I was taught by my mother and absolutely hated it (at school). I think that having your own territory is an incredibly important part of growing up, and that relationships with teachers and peers is a very important part of that.

As a matter of interest what % of time would most HE'd kids spend away from home/parents?

'If the parent gets bored of it, then send them to school! If you decide to HE, you don't have to do it forever.'

Yes she does! It would be cruel to do otherwise. Her youngest has never had a single day at school. When he was 5yrs the others were already been HEed and so it was never suggested that he went to school and my SIL was at her fully enthusiastic stage. He has never wanted to go to school. The older ones elected to flexi school at 15yrs and then full time 6th form. They had been to school at 5yrs so it wasn't so strange to them. Flexi school was difficult because they weren't there most of the time and friendships were difficult. They got a good circle of friends once they were there all the time. I would be highly surprised if the youngest asks to go and she couldn't make him go because she is bored-it would be very, very unfair on him.
I don't think anyone could choose to HE their DC from the start and then say after 10 yrs-'right -thats it-off to school , I'm tired of it'! It has to come from the DC, without pressure.
I just think people should bear in mind, in the first flush of enthusiasm that they may not feel the same 15yrs later-and you do have to continue-if the DC wishes it (unless you are hard hearted and indifferent to the needs of your DC, very unlikely with HEers I would imagine).

gws I think that is incredibly offensive to teachers to be honest. "I personally think that any teacher worth their salt would see that school education is not ideal" especially teachers who are also parents, and who choose to send their children to school. Of all people who should know how schools operate and the pros and cons of them, the fact that most teachers do not home educate suggests that actually they think that what they have chosen as a career is perhaps quite a good thing. As opposed to a fairly rubbish second best, which is what you are inferring.

OU U212 Childhood - absolutely fascinating - particularly the bit I am studying about when and why children first went into full time schooling.

Just wondering for those that are are against HE would you be OK for home edders to come onto the primary/secondary sections of MN and list all the perceived negatives of sending children to school and making assumptions about why people do it etc etc?

You never find these sorts of threads on those forums. I guess I just see this as a primarily support forum and don't understand why people come on to be so negative.

I don't mind if people actually want to LEARN about it even if they have no intention of doing it (and the back and forth can between both 'sides' can be interesting for all) but some clearly don't want to learn but just argue against HE.

Yes, yes I know that it's an open forum and everyone is free to post but like I say I see this as a support forum.

I think they first went into full time schooling when the country became more literate. There was no such thing as childhood for the majority-families were huge and the few pence they could earn were needed which is why little tots got their first jobs scaring crows off the crops, why they went down coal mines and behind spinning machines (small enough to fit small places). Luckily enlightened people thought that child labour was wrong and started schools. This is why a lot of the primary schools are church school-the church was a body that cared. In 1870 board schools were set up in the places that didn't have church schools. Hours and working conditions were improved and gradually child labour was stopped. Schools mean that DCs could read other opinions and didn't have to rely on what they were told. Printing presses got the word to everyone. Schools became an escape route from poverty-there never was a golden age of children being educated in the home with roses round the door and long days outside. Life was backbreakingly hard for the majority-keeping out of the workhouse was the sole aim of most.

Going back to gws-there is no 'ideal' system.

I knew it butterball-you go on long enough and someone always says 'why are you posting?'!! It is a public thread. I don't come on if someone is asking for advice but OP asked why children go to school. What point is there in starting that sort of thread if HEers are going to all agree that school is toxic? I went on to say why I went to school and why I send my DCs to school.

I love the debate, every so often someone new comes along and says they are really enjoying the thread-I think a lot of people do. Then after a while a HEer comes along and says-you shouldn't post!

By all means come onto the school threads and post-it is lovely to have the different opinions.

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'As a matter of interest what % of time would most HE'd kids spend away from home/parents?'

Generally I suppose this depends on the family-and more importantly on how much time the child wants to be away from home/parents.

But in my personal experience, by the time they reach teens they spend much more time away from home/parents than any of their schooled cousins or peers!

Their cousins and peers long for the freedoms our teens had, travelling around the country, staying with friends and attending camps and gatherings.

Butterball, the title of this thread is 'why children go to school'. Surely the people who have a better idea of why children go to school are the people who send their children to school. In which case I think it's appropriate that they put forward their thoughts on this thread.
I find it very interesting to know people's reasons for sending their children to school. I want to hear both sides so that I can understand better the pros and cons of school and HE.
I think it's helpful to both sides to try to understand the other person's viewpoint. And you can't do that if you shut them up.
This thread, afaik, wasn't asking for support for HE. Or have I misunderstood?
Perhaps it should have been started in the Education thread.

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As regards the op, the question seemed to be
"we had to decide if it was accessible without going to school "
It was decided that after identifying all the things that were accessible without going to school only 1) and 2) were left.
That doesn't mean they weren't accessible at school just that they could be accessed without going to school. What's so inflammatory about that?

I agree optimisticmumma about how dismissive people are of primary schooling on this thread. I meant to say if I didnt that I doubt that I could teach dd at a primary level, hence I teach secondary.

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Bloss, schools might offer things that HE doesn't but then again HE might offer things that school doesn't. It's a good thing imo that families can choose which of those things offered would be best overall for their child.