Why children go to school

[HSMM]

Had a very interesting debate at my OU tutorial this week about why children go to school. The tutor wrote 'school' up on the whiteboard and then had lots of lines going off it saying things like socialisation, qualifications, etc. When everyone had finished shouting out, he went through each thing and we had to decide if it was accessible without going to school and he wiped off the ones which were. At the end, the only 2 reasons he had left for children going to school were:

1. To keep them off the streets
2. So their parents can go to work I am considering HE my DD, so found this backed me up. The other students were very shocked and still could not agree, even though the evidence was in front of them!

Well that's something no-one will really know, Bloss.
However, if Riven's son was in a class of 20-30 children. Some of them messing around most of the lesson and not interested. How far do you think he might get then even if the teacher was a world class musician? Sometimes the teacher not putting in an appearance and a cover teacher taking the lesson. Or would it be possible that he might be put off the whole thing (as happened with one of my children).
Again that's something we'll never know.

Message withdrawn

I think that is why really good musicians want master classes with the experts-exploring together is OK up to a point but then you want expertise. My friend with very musical DCs had to start taking them up to London once a week in addition to music lessons at home.

I would agree on self taught for anything to do with computers - I don't know how they do it!
I would disagree strongly on climbing. All 3 of mine climb and I have spent hours at places like Stanage watching them (I can hardly bear it). I only let them because I know that they have had expert tuition, know how to tie on and belay etc at a climbing wall from a proper instructor. To start with they only went on rock faces with my brother who has years of experience. No way would I let them figure it out for themselves.
Skiing is the same-they had lessons. My brother learnt to ski on his own by trial and error-he got down the slopes but his style was dreadful. In the end he went and had a couple of private lessons from an expert.
I think that any outdoor activity that is potentially life threatening can't just be picked up by an enthusiastic person who wants to learn.
Something like English grammar or Spanish isn't going to harm you if you get it wrong but it just makes life simpler to have an expert to teach you.

The summer camp sounds great but Kent is no good. Would they just let someone in to observe because they were interested?

I am sure the book is interesting and I will look out for it in the library-however I always feel with the book that I would like to meet the author and more importantly his DCs. A lot of people in Education can talk and write well on the subject but are not too good at doing it. I am talking about teachers here-I know those who have the 'gift of the gab' can interview superbly and are hopeless in the classroom. I also know superb teachers who can't sell themselves and go to pieces in an interview.
I taught my psychology tutor's DD on a teaching practice once and she was an extremely nervous DD with no self confidence and yet he was a very charismatic man.

I think I agree with you Bloss.

"If I were doing autonomous learning with piano I might have got to a certain level."

But once you got to a certain level then you would look for someone more experienced.
Autonomous education doesn't mean that a person has to re-invent the wheel themselves.
Riven's son and teacher might be happy finding things out together. If her ds wanted to go further then I would think that the music teacher would be able to advise them on what the next step would be to achieve what he wanted.

I haven't read the whole thread but...

I don't think I would personally have the self-discipline to HE my DS, but I can see how it can work well if you do.

As someone who has taught at university and secondary level, (university first, while a student on a year 'in industry') I can honestly say that you can have too much 'teaching'. What is considered as teaching is, these days (IMO) sometimes more like spoon feeding. I encountered a whole load of 18 year olds who did not know how to learn for themselves. (This is just my experience - I am not slagging off all teachers - I know how hard their jobs are!)

We don't have access to specialist teachers our whole lives, and we can't always go back to education to learn new things we need as we go through life (as a former software developer this would mean constant retraining as the industry never stays still!). Children - and adults - need to learn how to learn, not just how to be taught. Many of them could not investigate a problem, even with the vast, easily searchable resource that is the internet. And if you asked them to read a book and learn from that, without someone explaining it in 5 different ways to them - well then they weren't being taught properly (as they would complain).

It is perfectly possible to learn alongside your child - if you have the ability to learn, you can help your child learn. Knowing how to do it often means knowing where to go for help when you have tried but still don't quite get it. I can see how the HE system helps this and will certainly be trying to supplement my DS's education if I find he's lacking this basic skill

Chairmum, completely agree with your post. Particularly
"Children - and adults - need to learn how to learn, not just how to be taught."

I have a great example actually. Not HE but self directed learning. One of our employees hated school and quit after his (poor) a-levels. We employed him at 23, with no work experience and no qualifications. (on a trial basis).

He had spent the years since he left school doing what he loved - which is what we employ him for - and he had taught himself everything. He surpasses most of the graduates we know of the same age. I wonder what he could have achieved if someone had taken him out of a school system that he hated and helped him to indulge his passion for learning.

Incidentally, despite being painfully shy, when we gently encourage him, he does start to engage more - now being pretty good on the phone and able to look customers in the eye He could have done with that 10 years ago though!

I don't think that teaching has anything to do with 'spoon feeding' -although sadly I admit that it is common-league tables mean teaching for the test. A good teacher is teaching DCs to think for themselves-it is a skill. (I hate anything to do with spoon feeding).

on the otherhand , I worked with someone who was HE then sent to 'free school' for secondary. He absolutely hated the HE and the free school and left with exam results that were woeful (and did not reflect what he could have achieved).

As a result, he started in a sub standard job and had to work incredibly hard to get where he did and really resented his upbringing.

I knew none of this but when I got pregnant with dd, he took me to one side and told me about it, so adamant was he that no-one should suffer like he did!

It really goes back to the fact that one size doesn't fit all. The only way to really know what suits would be to live our lives backwards!!

I agree that one size doesn't fit all - I was trying to address the concerns about needing an expert to teach, and explain my experience that it isn't always appropriate to have someone with more expertise than the learner, therefore IMO that aspect of HE is a benefit not a problem.

Whether it is a benefit, or a problem depends on the individual.

sorry for my hit and run posting yesterday

here's what I mean:

in some areas, children do NOT need tuition from someone who has made academic study of that area, or even from someone with expertise in that area (eg computer games, and of course this is a well duh point to make). they will reach excellence on their own.

in other areas, and the one which came to my mind was skateboarding, children seek out for themselves the expertise to help them get as good at the activity as they want to. they will happily spend 3 hours a day for years and years trying and failing to do that thing where you jump up and spin the board under your feet, land on it and keep going. They hang out with older skateboarders watching what they do, they take tips from the more expert ones when offered. And they don't need parents to find them a skateboarding tutor or school teachers to timetable a NC skateboarding hour every day in order to make sure they devote enough time to it. They themselves seek the help and tuition they need from older experts.

Self motivation is the key not only to learning but also to finding the advice and expertise and, yes, teaching you might need in order to learn as much about an area as you want to. A big advantage of schools is that they gather the advice, expertise and teaching provision in a fairly wide range of areas of human knowledge under the one roof. A big disadvantage of schools is that children have to access the advice, expertise and teaching provision on other people's terms as far as timetables and curriculum and so on are concerned. Schools just can't, by their nature, be as good at just-in-time personalised self-motivated learning for a child as the freedom to chase their current interests with support and advice from parents and the contacts of their friends and relations would be. And all those museum/zoo/national trust type staff just waiting for a persistent child to come along with questions. The world is full of trainspotters who love nothing better than to talk about their passion.

I can see that some think that it's important for children to be prepared to learn what other people think is important, and not to be expecting people to be prepared to help with their current passion at the drop of a hat. But the law says I should be providing an efficient education for my children, and I can't think of anything more efficient than educating them by helping them learn what they want to learn when they want it. Good schools do a splendid job of persuading children to learn what's on the agenda for today but I'm after maximum educational efficiency

so a reason to send a child to school would be about accessing, under one roof, all sorts of expertise and experience at communicating ideas to children.

And a reason not to be would be about maximising the efficiency with which a child accesses the knowledge and understanding and expertise they are interested in at any particular time.

There are good reasons why a lot of HE children go to FE colleges for GCSEs and A levels and diplomas - they consider it a way of getting the best of both worlds.

I see your point entirely ommmwardandupward, but to me the benefit of accessing it all under one roof outweighs the fact that they might not be in the mood at that point. If you put individual needs first then I can see you wouldn't take advantage of it.
If they go to FE colleges, they have exactly the same problem in that they might not want to do Maths on a Tuesday afternoon because they are into creative writing at the time. Does this mean it doesn't matter if they are older, or does the fact that they chose to do the course meant it was OK?
Would school be OK if they advertised they were having a workshop on the Tudors at 11.30am on 21st April and you could just go for that and home for lunch? I am not being awkward-just trying to work out what is acceptable and what isn't. Is it more the fact that you go at 9am and come home at 3.15pm and have to do whatever the staff have decided for the day but that if you could dip in and out when it suited it would be OK? I must say that I quite fancy some sort of community school where you could do that and adults could do a class too.
I think that there is quite a case for changing schools to a different pattern.

I agree with your point on computers and skateboarding, but someone, maybe you, mentioned climbing. Climbing is one of several things that you can't learn yourself through trial and error-your life depends on a rope and your climbing companion-it is absolutely essential that you have a proper teacher and are shown how to do it. I wouldn't climb with someone who was self taught.

"If they go to FE colleges, they have exactly the same problem in that they might not want to do Maths on a Tuesday afternoon because they are into creative writing at the time. Does this mean it doesn't matter if they are older, or does the fact that they chose to do the course meant it was OK?"

That is it exactly -They are free to choose which courses to do at FE college. Well that has been my experience anyway, with our teens.

Being at FE college because he had chosen to do so, meant that my DS was committed to being there and working hard.
He knew he didn't have to go. That we wouldn't nag him to attend/be on time/do assignments and homework. His choice, his responsibility.
We helped when asked, took an interest but never nagged.
He was there by completely free choice doing the courses he wanted to. So he attended all of the lessons, was punctual and completed all the assignments/homework.

"Would school be OK if they advertised they were having a workshop on the Tudors at 11.30am on 21st April and you could just go for that and home for lunch? I am not being awkward-just trying to work out what is acceptable and what isn't. Is it more the fact that you go at 9am and come home at 3.15pm and have to do whatever the staff have decided for the day but that if you could dip in and out when it suited it would be OK? I must say that I quite fancy some sort of community school where you could do that and adults could do a class too.
I think that there is quite a case for changing schools to a different pattern."

Now that sounds to me like something a lot of home educating families would use!
I agree with that entirely!

I must say that I quite fancy some sort of community school where you could do that and adults could do a class too.
I think that there is quite a case for changing schools to a different pattern.

Go piscesmoon!

"If they go to FE colleges... Does this mean it doesn't matter if they are older, or does the fact that they chose to do the course meant it was OK?"

They chose to do the course - they chose to be there. They are choosing to take the advantage (getting the expert guidance through a subject area which fascinates them) and live with the disadvantage (the expert guidance has to be shared and is only available on tuesdays at 2pm). Their choice.

"Would school be OK if they advertised they were having a workshop on the Tudors at 11.30am on 21st April and you could just go for that and home for lunch? I am not being awkward-just trying to work out what is acceptable and what isn't. Is it more the fact that you go at 9am and come home at 3.15pm and have to do whatever the staff have decided for the day but that if you could dip in and out when it suited it would be OK? I must say that I quite fancy some sort of community school where you could do that and adults could do a class too.
I think that there is quite a case for changing schools to a different pattern."

Just tell me where to sign up That's exactly the sort of community resource I could get behind!

"Climbing is one of several things that you can't learn yourself through trial and error-your life depends on a rope and your climbing companion-it is absolutely essential that you have a proper teacher and are shown how to do it. I wouldn't climb with someone who was self taught."

he he he. I wrote that in a hurry. Truth is, I was thinking of the kind of self-taught climbing little children do on climbing frames, garden walls, furniture, trees etc when people say "oh, you've really got a Climber, haven't you?"

I completely agree that rock climbing needs guidance (I didn't have professional teachers in that area, but all the adults I rock climbed or scrambled with had done at least one alpine season and a lot of them had himalayan experience too... they were real climbers. I totally understand about needing expert guidance in that area!!! Of course, if a child of mine wants to learn to climb properly, not just indoor parkay, then I'd set them up with expert guidance.

It's all about motivation. If someone is self motivated, you build on it with whatever expertise you can access. Formal tuition is not alien to autonomous HE. But formal tuition which the child didn't consent to is alien.

I think that we may have reached a good compromise julienoshoes! Perhaps 21st century is the time to change something that was started in 19th century-after all the whole school year is organised around DCs needing to be at home to help get in the harvest!
I would quite like to teach somewhere that I could do workshops on things. It would need commitment, if a 9 yr old was going to learn French or dance etc they would have to commit to every week at a certain time-it could be done in half term blocks so they weren't signing up for too much in advance.It would be difficult for the teacher to get continuity if they didn't know who was turning up.In fact thinking about it I could get very enthusiastic-I expect if they found a teacher they liked they might come to several things.
Unfortunately it won't work because most parents want the 2 things that were left on the board in OP tutorial!

I thought afterwards that you perhaps meant climbing frames-through personal experience of my DSs-I was immediately onto ice climbing in Scotland!

"Would school be OK if they advertised they were having a workshop on the Tudors at 11.30am on 21st April and you could just go for that and home for lunch? I am not being awkward-just trying to work out what is acceptable and what isn't. Is it more the fact that you go at 9am and come home at 3.15pm and have to do whatever the staff have decided for the day but that if you could dip in and out when it suited it would be OK? I must say that I quite fancy some sort of community school where you could do that and adults could do a class too.
I think that there is quite a case for changing schools to a different pattern."

We'd sign up for this, too. It sounds great.

"It would be difficult for the teacher to get continuity if they didn't know who was turning up.In fact thinking about it I could get very enthusiastic-I expect if they found a teacher they liked they might come to several things"

I agree it would be difficult if a teacher didn't know who is coming, but if children or adults are really interested in something and have committed to it-then believe me they do turn up!

I have seen home educators as a group complete courses on all sorts of things- First Aid/Japanese language lessons/Sailing/French lessons/Maths/English Lit/Astrology-all sorts of things and sometimes the participants have travelled miles to get there on public transport.

And I have seen just how thrilled and inspired the teachers are to have enthusiastic children and young people (it is very often a mixed age group with home ed groups) engaging with the lessons so wholeheartedly.

You could sign me up for that-I think it would be great. I think it is what school is all about. However OP got left with keeping DCs off the street and letting parents work so I think we are stuck with the present system.

Well we put on lot of training for people at work, usually at their request, and we have major problems getting people to actually turn up. So you have workshops designed to work for 20 people, with five actually coming, which is a bit of a disater because then the cost of the trainer is wasted (remeber that this would be someone paid on an ad-hoc rather than full time basis) and the session doesn't actually work. We've taken to fining people now. Maybe it's because they weren't HEd, but I am not at all sure this turn up if you feel like it approach would really work without a fair bit of supervision.