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Original poster

Why children go to school

280 replies

HSMM · 17/04/2009 08:36

Had a very interesting debate at my OU tutorial this week about why children go to school. The tutor wrote 'school' up on the whiteboard and then had lots of lines going off it saying things like socialisation, qualifications, etc. When everyone had finished shouting out, he went through each thing and we had to decide if it was accessible without going to school and he wiped off the ones which were. At the end, the only 2 reasons he had left for children going to school were:

  1. To keep them off the streets
  2. So their parents can go to work I am considering HE my DD, so found this backed me up. The other students were very shocked and still could not agree, even though the evidence was in front of them!
OP posts:
OrmIrian · 17/04/2009 10:37

It's not 'evidence' is it. It's some people's opinions

Niecie · 17/04/2009 10:38

If both you and your children are happy to HE then I am sure it is great. If both you and your children are happy for them to go to school, this is also great.

The problem comes when the two sides don't agree with one another. For example, parents who don't want their children to go to school because they didn't enjoy it or children who don't want to go to school and whose parents can't HE for whatever reason.

Sounds like HE'ing costs money too - getting somebody else to teach your child, buying books and on-line courses. Libaries are fine up to a point but mostly they don't have access to new books like a decent school does.

I agree actually that the whole topic is much too complex to create and list and then think of ways round them. Motivation is hugely important and if you don't have it, every problem is insurmountable.

greatwhiteshark · 17/04/2009 10:40

Libra - you clearly don't understand about how children and adults learn best. I think it's naive to think that you need teachers to learn. You may need teachers later on when you want to get really indepth with a subject...or you may not. Einstein didn't have teachers and somehow he managed to become an incredibly important and successful scientist. Agatha Cristie never had teachers and she became an eminent and respected author. Daniel and Natasha Bedingfield never had teachers and they've become very successful singers. Will come up with a few more if you need me too....

Now think of how many people go to school and come out with no qualifications, need to be bribed to continue learning, are illiterate and/or innumerate.

I'm not slating school, I'm just saying you can't say that HE doesn't work based on your misunderstanding of how learning happens, and make sweeping statements like 'I think it is arrogance to think you can do that with HE' when actually HE is a very successful and sustainable form of education and school, which can be brilliant, can also be very, very crap and seriously fail many children.

Ripeberry · 17/04/2009 10:41

If people can HE and not have to be qualified, then why do they send people to prison for not getting their child to school?
Why don't they let those parents HE?

poopscoop · 17/04/2009 10:42

greatwhite - Excellent posts.

OrmIrian · 17/04/2009 10:42

And why do teachers have to go to university for 4 yrs and then have a years probationary teaching?

LibrasJusticeLeagueofBiscuits · 17/04/2009 10:46

"'I think it is arrogance to think you can do that with HE' when actually HE is a very successful and sustainable form of education and school, which can be brilliant, can also be very, very crap and seriously fail many children. "

So actually you are saying that HE is EXACTLY like school you get the good ones and the bad ones. At least one or two bad teachers at school can be balanced out with good teachers, if you are crap at HE then your child is doomed.

"Now think of how many people go to school and come out with no qualifications, need to be bribed to continue learning, are illiterate and/or innumerate.

Personally in most of these cases there is something wrong at home in which case HE certainly wouldn't work.

poopscoop · 17/04/2009 10:46

Ripeberry - The people who get sent to prison for not sending their children to school are those who have children registered at a school, and they are not going.

HE is competely different, the children are not registered to attend school. They are educated according to their age ability and aptitude, whetherthe parent chooses to emply tutors, teach them themselves, or allow the child to choose their own learning. This is the parents responsibility to ensure that this happens.

Obviously there are cases where it does not happen, just as some parents allow their children to play truant.

LibrasJusticeLeagueofBiscuits · 17/04/2009 10:46

"'I think it is arrogance to think you can do that with HE' when actually HE is a very successful and sustainable form of education and school, which can be brilliant, can also be very, very crap and seriously fail many children. "

So actually you are saying that HE is EXACTLY like school you get the good ones and the bad ones. At least one or two bad teachers at school can be balanced out with good teachers, if you are crap at HE then your child is doomed.

"Now think of how many people go to school and come out with no qualifications, need to be bribed to continue learning, are illiterate and/or innumerate.

In most of these cases I think you would find there is something wrong at home in which case HE certainly wouldn't work.

greatwhiteshark · 17/04/2009 10:47

Libra - my children have never been to school. There are so many reasons we home educate, which I'll list if you like, but would take ages...maybe I'll write a longer post later when my children are busy elsewhere - at the moment I'm helping them write letters and can only concentrate for short posts!. I'd rather not say all their ages - want to keep a bit of privacy

mrsruffalo - what do you mean?

OrmIrian - what do you mean 'it's not evidence'? There is proper research into how home education works if that's what you mean. It's not opinion. Also, of course, there's the evidence of the adults who were home educated.

Niecie - I agree. I would let my children go to school if they wanted to, and I think all of the HEors I know woudl do the same.

Money - it doesn't have to cost a lot of money. We dont' have to buy school uniforms, or pay for school trips. Lots of HEors do it on a shoestring very successfully. HEors in our area have access to the schools library so have all the same books the schools do, and you can ask libraries to buy in new books if you want them. And there are lots of free online resources. Also a lot of skill-sharing goes on within the HE community so we have a local family, the father of which is French, so he teaches children who want to learn French for a very small amount of money.

Niecie · 17/04/2009 10:47

Greatwhite - we can swop names all day. I am sure that there are plenty of highly intelligent innovative people who have been formally educated too. There is no point to listing them.

Do you really think the illiterate uneducated children would do any better if HE'ed? I doubt it.

Nothing against HE'ing. I couldn't do it but admire those that can but I doubt very much it is a cure for all ills.

bloss · 17/04/2009 10:48

Message withdrawn

Fillyjonk · 17/04/2009 10:49

I can't think of anything worse than being unable to learn effectively without a teacher.

I really value my kids' skills in self teaching. If they want to know something they work out what they need to know, who they need to ask, how to approach them, how to phrase the question, how much help to ask for, in some cases how to barter for help.

Learning how to learn, and giving them the basic skills to access information (reading, numeracy/stats, basic understanding of stuff like experimental design, bias etc, social skills to enable them to charm people into mentoring them) is pretty much all I specifically feel my kids need to know.

I can't imagine a child not wanting to know everything about everything, tbh. That is just what kids do, they are insatiably curious about everything. We have to tell our kids to put their books away and go to bed and I do not think that this is an unusual HEing experience.

The trouble with these debates, while they serve a useful purpose, is that what anti-HErs are telling us our lives look like just isn't what our lives do look like, so it all gets very peculiar.

Kayteee · 17/04/2009 10:50

Dear Lord,

All you anti-HE people....why are you on here?

It's obvious you don't agree, understand HE or have the ability to think "outside the box". Why don't you go and post on the school forums where you will be more comfortable, eh?

TheFallenMadonna · 17/04/2009 10:51

"Daniel and Natasha Bedingfield never had teachers and they've become very successful singers"

LOL

I think you should have stopped at Einstein

And I think there are an awful lot of theories as to how children learn best.

HE is fine. I'm actually very interested in it. I'm a teacher, so it would be weird if I weren't.

greatwhiteshark · 17/04/2009 10:51

"Greatwhite - we can swop names all day. I am sure that there are plenty of highly intelligent innovative people who have been formally educated too. There is no point to listing them."

I agree, but I was making the point that it is clearly a fallacy that one needs teachers in order to learn.

"Do you really think the illiterate uneducated children would do any better if HE'ed? I doubt it."

No, but clearly school doesn't make much difference either in those cases...

"I doubt very much it is a cure for all ills. "

Of course you're right - I don't think every child should be home educated, but I do think that people should understand how it works before passing judgement on it.

Fillyjonk · 17/04/2009 10:53

that said, let me just clear up one thing

some HErs are very very structured and tbh their houses look like schools

most aren't

in a situation where a child wanted to learn something and there seemed no effective way for them to do it aside from utilising the skills of a teacher-or even, tbh, where a HE'd kid WANTED classes-every single HEr I know (and I know a lot) would sort out some classes. It is not some huge big deal! I don't think I know a single HE'd kid over 5 who hasn't done SOME classes, heck, the local HE groups even organise them!

Ripeberry · 17/04/2009 10:53

So if your child was really unhappy at school can they be de-registered?

TheFallenMadonna · 17/04/2009 10:53

The thread title is "Why children go to school".

I quite agree - why would anyone whose children go to school have anything to say about that?

greatwhiteshark · 17/04/2009 10:54

Bloss - I feel like I'm banging my head against a brick wall!!! Have I not posted several times now about how children learn without being in school???? If a child wants to learn calculus (whatever that is! OMG, how did I survive without knowing calculus!?), then they'll find a way to learn it - HE'd children are very good at knowing how to learn things - where to access the information they need.

OrmIrian · 17/04/2009 10:54

I was referring to the OPs assertion that the other students were still objecting in spite of the 'evidence' - which in this case was what a roomful of people had decided. That was what I meant.

nkf · 17/04/2009 10:54

Well, parents going to work is a huge reason. It's how most people get money don't you know.

greatwhiteshark · 17/04/2009 10:55

Ripeberry - yes, they can be de-registered and home educated. Even if they weren't unhappy at school, if they just felt like not being educated in a school, or if you and they decided together that home education would work better for your family, or whatever - you don't need a reason

greatwhiteshark · 17/04/2009 10:56

OrmIrian - ok - thanks for clarifying!

poopscoop · 17/04/2009 10:56

Schools have only been around for the last hundred odd years. How did all those scientists etc gain the knowledge for their subject. They most certainly did not get it from teachers.

People were educated at home until then!