Why children go to school

[HSMM]

Had a very interesting debate at my OU tutorial this week about why children go to school. The tutor wrote 'school' up on the whiteboard and then had lots of lines going off it saying things like socialisation, qualifications, etc. When everyone had finished shouting out, he went through each thing and we had to decide if it was accessible without going to school and he wiped off the ones which were. At the end, the only 2 reasons he had left for children going to school were:

1. To keep them off the streets
2. So their parents can go to work I am considering HE my DD, so found this backed me up. The other students were very shocked and still could not agree, even though the evidence was in front of them!

many of the families

[shoots self in the head and immediately enrolls entire family in school]

pmsl MMJ

Can I ask just out of interest those on here who have said they know they couldn't HE, why?

What exactly is it that you don't think you could do?

yes, well there is that!

What I mean is, not for the reason of having to work etc, but it is just that anyone could do it really.

You do not need a vast array of qualifications yourself.

Why not?

• wot MMJ said
• I want to work, thanks
• I have no patience
• Teaching is a skill and vocation. Sadly, it is not mine
• I want a life outside the home
• Teaching young children primary level skills is one thing, teaching at a higher level is too specialised
• actually, my children would probably kill me

ok fair comments.

Would there be any circumstances which would change your views. i.e your child was dreadfully unhappy, or being bullied, or the local schools were not satisfactory?

I am trying to get this thread back on to a healthy discussion, as these usually end up in a long drawn out slanging math between the HEers and the Schoolers.

match

No, wouldn't change views for reasons above - just not practical for a start. Was bullied myself but HE for me would have been disaster . I am of philosophy that life can throw shit, but you have to learn to cope with it rather than run away from it and that being in a 'bubble' (I dont necess mean just HE here) provides a lovely temporary respite but doesn't deal with the root of the problem.

Having said that I can't of course say "no, never, never, never" but I would see HE (or private for that matter) as a route of last resort and as only a temporary measure.

Message withdrawn

If dd was being bullied I would move her schools, if she kept being bullied wherever she want I would maybe withdraw her for a while while we addressed what was causing people to bully her. But I appreciate that you don't know how you would react before it happens.

If the local schools in my view were crap, I would move or send her private. Have to say they would need to be really poor for me to consider this as I have a confidence that dd will do well whereever she went.

I genuinely can't think of anything that would make me consider HE as on a day to day basis I see kids loving school.

I agree that life can throw shit and one needs to learn from it and not run away, but I think what is missing there is that we are talking about children. Children who have suffered long term bullying and are left in that situation sadly do not always learn to cope with it. It can cause huge problems in later life, and I know that by removing my DS I have done the very best I can for his wellbeing. I could not let it carry on. I did try to change schools but the damage was done, and he just couldn't settle, which resulted in low self esteem and required counselling for some time.

A whole new social life has restored his confidence and we have never looked back

I have, a daughter who would never be HE, she loves school, has many friends, works hard and looks forward to going every day. I would never change that and am relieved that I have one child who just slots in, but unfortunately with many children it is not always like that.

Oh I would certainly HE under some circumstances. As I've said, it is something I've considered, and for proactive rather than reactive reasons. But for me, the ideal is a good school.

I agree with twinsetandpearls and HE would be the very last resort.

1. I want to work and if I did it, it would have to be a way of life, work would have to fit around DCs, I wouldn't fit DCs around work.

1. I like peace and quiet, selfishly, for my well being I need the house to myself and absolute silence for some period of the week.

3.I want free time to pursue my own interests.

4.I want to relax and have fun with my DCs, I don't want to have to turn things into an educational experience.

1. I have an 8 yr gap between DCs and so I couldn't do justice to both, someone would be marking time.

6.DS3 is cleverer than DS2 and since there is only 20 months between them this would become very obvious.

1. DS2 and DS3 have very different personalities, interests and friends and although they get on well as brothers it is much better to have time apart.

1. They wouldn't do things for me that they do for a teacher. They wouldn't do any writing at all left to themselves.

1. If DS2 and 3 spend too much time together they deliberately wind each other up.

10. A different person can find hidden depths that I didn't know were there.

11. I want them to come across teachers who are passionate about their subject.

12. I want them to be independent, free thinkers and have access to all sorts of different views and make up their own minds.

13. I want them to learn how to be a good friend, how to share, take turns and cooperate, without me being there.

14. I want them to make their own friends, not the ones vetted by me. I want them to be strong enough to withstand peer pressure and do their own thing (they need to be exposed to it in the first place).

15. I want them to fit into society as it is, they will have to as adults. There is a lot that I don't like about society but it isn't helpful creating my own small one because they have to leave it eventually and fit in with their peers. I would like them to have shared experiences of their peer group and not feel an oddity.

I don't like the level of control that it would give me. I am not that confident that I am right in all my ideas, and am much happier with the idea that it takes a village to raise a DC (the whole village not a hand picked part). Above all I don't want them to turn round as adults and tell me that I was wrong and I stopped them getting a proper education. I don't mind if they do that with school because I was doing the norm, to the best of my ability, and can justify it with practical arguments like needing a salary.

Pisces - I'm not a HEer at the mo, but wanted to counter a list you made earlier, if you don't mind. Just for my own interest really. I might attempt your second list in a bit

No disrespect but it's interesting for me as you know at the moment with my little dilemma.

By piscesmoon on Fri 17-Apr-09 11:02:57
I was going to bow out-but OK reasons other that I loved it.
1.A teacher who loves their subject, is knowledgable and can communicate it to someone else. Yes, I like this. There are others in society though who are just as eager to teach...and don't have to contend with the kids who just won't behave or listen, as well.

1. All age related equipment in one place. (Not worth buying a lot of if because it will be used once) Hmm...you can access this stuff elsewhere.

1. A huge range of age related books-(in addition to what the DC has at home and at the local library) Nobody I ever knew at school ever used the library or liked their text books, which were often battered, out of date and dull. We have millions of books at home, too.

1. Different people suggesting or introducing to books. HE'd kids meet different people.

1. Learning to work in groups with other children, to co operate, take turns and listen to other views.

Yes this happens in life as well...not just in school. Crowd control is often a large part of teaching in a school. (I read that somewhere!)

1. Staff who are working and putting the DC first-they do not have to deal with a teething baby, the washing, cooking the lunch or answering the phone at the same time. But they are having to deal with potentially 30 other kids including the ones graffitiing the desks at the back of the class...or jumping on them...

7.Finding there are other views, e.g child from atheist home discovers there are people with strong religious faiths and vice versa.

Again, it happens naturally out of school.

1. Making their own friends, liking DCs that parents may well prevent them from seeing at home if they don't happen to like them.

This can also be achieved through youth groups, clubs and so on.

1. Observing human nature (great for that one!)

And you can't do this anywhere but school??

10. Seeing the same friends every day.

How about seeing the same friends whenever you want to?

11. Having to be independent and sort out problems for themselves without mum to do it for them.

You can easily provide this at home.
In fact I am sat outside with my laptop right now, having my feet massaged by a handsome bloke, while the kids prepare dinner

12.Learning to deal with difficult people (it would be nice if that one wasn't necessary-but in RL they crop up all the time) oh yes they do, and not just in school.

13.Knowing that you are not the centre of the universe and learning how to fit in with other people. Again, no barrier to learning this out of school.

14. Doing things when you don't want to do them. (very necessary-I am drinking coffee about to do all sorts of things I don't want to do)

Yes again, nothing you can't achieve out of school.

15. Being able to do the sorts of activities and games that need a lot of children.

Clubs, groups etc etc

16.Having people other than family celebrating your successes.

I see your point here but it can happen out of school.

17.Having a large enough body for visting theatre groups, authors, artists and chefs to attend.

Hmm - again an enticing thought, but there are counter arguments to large group trips etc.

You have to choose your school flightoftheeasterbunyip! I wouldn't send them to one in the first place if it involved crowd control and graffiti.
I wouldn't defend all schools-some are utterly dire and I wouldn't touch them with a bargepole!
HE is the same-wonderful if you have a well balanced, sociable, calm, approachable, understanding and broadminded parent-not all DCs are so lucky.

Having my feet massaged by a handsome bloke while the kids prepare dinner is the most tempting argument so far!

I don't understand why anyone thinks they couldn't HE their child at primary level.

You have all managed to educate your child in a million and one things before they are school aged and you all did it without feeling as if you were a teacher who needed years of university.

You have all made intelligent, caring, sociable sons/daughters. You DON'T need to send your child to school as you could do it yourself as you already HAVE.

But I'm all for people sending their children to school if it works for their family.

Pisces - Do you really think children who have not been to school are odd? I do find that quite offensive. You have put some valid comments in the list but there are a couple which I find unneccsary including

"I want them to learn how to be a good friend, how to share, take turns and cooperate, without me being there"

I am not glued to DS side. He spends a large amount of his time with other people, adults and children alike. You paint a picture that these children are cocooned into the family environment and never allowed to mix with non HE'ers who cannot express themselves freely without the parent standing over them.

"I want them to be independent, free thinkers and have access to all sorts of different views and make up their own minds~

This is one of the biggest pros of HE!

MMJ I can assure you I spend a lot of money making sure my children whether H.E or at school have 'the' clothes....

Custy I have never disgreed with any of your posts nd thought this occasion would alter that view however you have picked up on a very important element of school life - the conformity and I too have always been very aware of this so much so that when ds2 started secondary after 3 years of H.E it was suggested a short period of reintegration but it was soon obvious this wasnt neccesary ds2 fitted in straight away down to the bloody tie.

A lot of what is our 'success'in other peoples eyes is the fact that our children are very 'normal'in so far as they have a variety of mates (some i definitely dont approve of) they have always 'hung out' where the school children go such as the park after school.

I dont think education is best in a school equally I dont for a minute support the theory that all home edders are lentil weaving tie dye parents.

At the end of the day we can all only do what we as prents think is best for our children.

I couldn't teach my own children because I am too emotionally bound up with them. I don't want to live my life through them and I don't see how I can avoid doing that if I HE'ed. Their triumphs would be mine and their failures too. Not healthy for either of us. I am not saying that everybody is the same, by the way - if you can separate these things then good for you.

I don't know enough about plenty of subjects to give them a fair chance of getting interested themselves. I know all this stuff about how I could learn along with them but I have done my time being educated in subjects I am not interested in and I don't want to do it any more. My lack of enthusiasm could put them off doing something they may well love.

Because there is more than one way of teaching and, not being a qualified teacher, I can only do it my way which may not be the best way for my children. Maybe it is but my children's education is not an experiment for me to practice my skills.

Because DS1 has special needs that there are definitely other people better suited to.

I do consider whether I should HE my children every now and again but it just doesn't seem to be the right thing for us to do so no axe to grind.

I disagree that we have all 'educated' our children up to the age of 5 actually. There is a difference between bringing children up and educating them. I didn't teach my children to be caring or sociable - part of that is how we related to one another and another part is in-born. It isn't the same as teaching them to read or teaching them maths.

I agree with Neicie - huge difference between 'bringing up' and 'educating'. I think you do need a certain level of education actually to be able to HE - my parents both left school at 14 and would never have been able to teach me to 11+ standard, though they were incredibly supportive in other ways.

My dh's knowledge of basic grammar is so appalling it would be cruel to get him to HE in literacy ... I think beyond the early years of primary it's not so straightforward actually.

That is a shame about your DH and his basic grammar. Did he attend school?

only joking before i'm flamed

I don't understand how bringing up and educating your child are such different things to some people.

Educating my children has always been a big part of bringing them up. How can it be different?

I didn't say I thought them odd!! I said that I didn't want them to feel an oddity within their peer group-I think that it was custardo who said their was a whole shared community thing that they are not part of. I know one adult who never talks in a group situation about not going to school because she feels odd-she is completely normal by the way!
I agree with neicie-I am much too emotionally bound up with my DCs.