Why children go to school

[HSMM]

Had a very interesting debate at my OU tutorial this week about why children go to school. The tutor wrote 'school' up on the whiteboard and then had lots of lines going off it saying things like socialisation, qualifications, etc. When everyone had finished shouting out, he went through each thing and we had to decide if it was accessible without going to school and he wiped off the ones which were. At the end, the only 2 reasons he had left for children going to school were:

1. To keep them off the streets
2. So their parents can go to work I am considering HE my DD, so found this backed me up. The other students were very shocked and still could not agree, even though the evidence was in front of them!

"All you anti-HE people....why are you on here?"

Maybe because we are trying to understand why people HE even if it's not something we would do ourselves. Or is learning new things only restricted to children?

I agree children love to learn, but only up to a point, most children when faced with something difficult or something they consider boring will not be interested in continuing, I praised the lord when I was allowed to drop geography aged 14. It's the same with food, if you let children choose their own menu the share prices in fruit shoots and mcdonalds would rocket.

greatwhiteshark - I am as I said very sympathetic to and interested in HE, and I'm sure you do do this, but exposure to someone who thinks that calculus is a fascinating and useful area of study is pretty important I think. Surely its about facilitating the 'want' and much as the study. Does that make sense?

poopscoop, erm schools or at least places of learning have been around for centuries. I will grant that it's only in the last couple of hundred years it has been available for everyone. Before that the MC/rich educated and the poor went to work age 6. So I am not quite sure what argument you are trying to work with that example.

"I agree children love to learn, but only up to a point, most children when faced with something difficult or something they consider boring will not be interested in continuing, I praised the lord when I was allowed to drop geography aged 14. It's the same with food, if you let children choose their own menu the share prices in fruit shoots and mcdonalds would rocket."

None of this is actually inevitable, Libra. Chidlren often stop loving to learn when they've spent a few years being coerced into it at school - that love tends to not go when they're doing it because they want to do it - intrinsic rather than extrinsic motivation. It's also worth considering why a child needs to learn the things they don't want to learn...for instance, what would happen if they didn't learn calculus? Would the world come to an end? it would only be important to learn calculus if they needed it to learn or do something else, in which case they'd be highly motivated to learn it.

Do you remember any of the geography you were coerced into learning pre-14? I don't, but somehow seem to have survived without that knowledge. So all those geography lessons were a complete waste of time that I could have spent learning about something that I actually wanted to learn.

And children who have never had their food regulated by an adult, regulate it very well themselves usually, eating a very balanced diet.

pmsl that I should aspire for my dd to be like the Bedingfields.

My dp is at home all day so we dont need childcare and dd is not interested in hanging around on streets, more likely to be found running in a field. So there must be other reasons why my dd goes to school.

I was going to bow out-but OK reasons other that I loved it.
1.A teacher who loves their subject, is knowledgable and can communicate it to someone else.

1. All age related equipment in one place. (Not worth buying a lot of if because it will be used once)
2. A huge range of age related books-(in addition to what the DC has at home and at the local library)
3. Different people suggesting or introducing to books.
4. Learning to work in groups with other children, to co operate, take turns and listen to other views.
5. Staff who are working and putting the DC first-they do not have to deal with a teething baby, the washing, cooking the lunch or answering the phone at the same time.

7.Finding there are other views, e.g child from atheist home discovers there are people with strong religious faiths and vice versa.

1. Making their own friends, liking DCs that parents may well prevent them from seeing at home if they don't happen to like them.
2. Observing human nature (great for that one!)

10. Seeing the same friends every day. 11. Having to be independent and sort out problems for themselves without mum to do it for them. 12.Learning to deal with difficult people (it would be nice if that one wasn't necessary-but in RL they crop up all the time) 13.Knowing that you are not the centre of the universe and learning how to fit in with other people. 14. Doing things when you don't want to do them. (very necessary-I am drinking coffee about to do all sorts of things I don't want to do) 15. Being able to do the sorts of activities and games that need a lot of children. 16.Having people other than family celebrating your successes. 17.Having a large enough body for visting theatre groups, authors, artists and chefs to attend.

This is mainly primary.

All the above for secondary but subject teachers are very important at that stage. I couldn't teach chemistry or Spanish-I couldn't even felicitate their learning.
Teaching to the syllabus for exams.

I am sure that I have forgotten vital things but I am off to do all the things that I don't want to do but have to be done as visitors are arriving this evening.

I have no doubt that you will pull it apart point by point greatwhiteshark-but you did ask!!

Madonna - "Surely its about facilitating the 'want' and much as the study. Does that make sense? "

Yes, I agree, but my point is that that doesn't have to happen in school. I know a lot of HEd teens who know a lot about subjects their parents know nothing about - they've discovered an interest from somewhere (maybe talking to another adult at a museum, or an HE group, or by reading a book) and found out more and more about it, and then gone on to get degrees in the subject. I know one who is currently working on his PhD.

I (and most other HEors) work hard to ensure their children do have the opportunity to discover interests outside of the home by going on outings, reading books, watching television, visiting museums/castles/zoos and so on.

I went to college with people (married one of them) who love maths in and of itself. Not as a means to an end. Of course it is a means to an end, and they do all sorts of useful things now. But they didn't love it until they did it, how could they?

Piscesmoon - I think only number 10 is relevant to your argument - all the others happen with home educated children also.

Enjoy your housework (which you don't technically have to do - you choose to do it so you don't look lazy to your visitors and so they have a comfortable visit with you )

Libra,

Supposing I were to ask for your recommendation of a school for my dc. A school which you had already sent your dc to.
If you were to say to me " this school is great, the teachers are fun, the kids are really happy and thriving etc;", I would not then slate your recommendation and go on and on about you making the wrong decision (without at least trying it for myself). Hope that makes sense.

This is what gets up my nose when people say they are trying to understand HE. I don't think they are at all.

I know it doesn't have to happen in school. But it doesn't necessarily happen at home either. I do think the interests of the teacher/facilitators do influence the direction the children take, even if only subtly. And your post on calculus as simply a means to an end reinforces that for me. Of course a bad teacher won't be any more successful than an uninterested parent, so it's not a blanket criticism of HE and lauding of schools.

Madonnna - one of my daughters loves maths, and I can see her taking it further as she gets older. The other day she was playing on the internet looking for games to play, and found a maths one - she suddenly said 'Yesss!!! Sums! I love sums!'. I haven't taught her that. Languages also - she asked to learn French. A friend gave us some children's French cds and she goes to a french club run by a local HEor who is French, and she knows far more than I did at her age. They don't have to be in school to do these things.

twinset - ok, ok, bedingfields, bad example. But, my point was, they're successful and happy and didn't have to go to school to get there.

It is a shame this always turns into such a huge either/or debate. I can see huge advantages of both.

Where I grew up there was a "school" set up to be basically a home-ed group but with it's own premises. The parents kind of ran it as a co-operative, took turns running sessions, loads of day-trips, could just stay home instead if wanted (unless your shift to do something), etc.

My friend's four brothers went there (it had folded by the time she was old enough). Her mother was a History and English teacher and thought it was the perfect compromise.

Her first three brothers totally excelled in this setting. The fourth just never really learnt to read. No particular learning difficulties, etc, he just never learnt and because he was so busy expirmenting in the sandpit, making ant farms, etc, it didn't really get picked up. He is fine now, but still sees himself as the only one who didn't get to uni and sees himself as the family failure.

So I think it is a case of different things suiting some and not others. Similarly I went to a high school which really taught you to rely on yourself and push yourself - zero spoonfeeding and little monitoring. I loved it and thrived, my brother loved it and thrived, my sister wishes she went somewhere more formal.

What worries me about HE is I think there is risk that some families can use it to escape the world. There is a very troubled little child I know whose even more troubled mum is threatening to pull him out and HE him. She can barely cope with life, and so I really think her child is better off in the school environment. I don't know how, as a government, you can monitor those situations without intruding on all Home Edders.

We are very lucky in our local school. It is very play-based and nurturing. It has loads of dance, music, sticking, gluing in the programme. There is a bug club where they all head to the nature area pond and spot bugs, they're even in a national stag beetle monitoring programme. I feel DS is thriving there. Ofsted don't rate the place of course!!

A local private school to us gives their kids Wednesday afternoons off. Now I would LOVE that. A chance to head into the museums, paint in the garden, do some baking, etc, etc, but also the benefit of school the rest of the time.

What a waffle!

I guess what I'm saying is that I wish each side of this debate could try and see the good in the other side.

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Who taught the teachers before there were teachers?? That is what I mean. Yes, there were schools but not for many. The people leaving those schools were not the only ones who had great knowledge.

I am not anti school, I have children who attend school as well as HEing, but I do hate this constant criticism of Home Education by others who are ignorant of what it entails or believe that the only way to learn is in school and by a qualified teacher. Because that, I am afraid is absolute rubbish.

So greatwhiteshark if your children decided they didn't want to learn any maths or english grammar you would be quite happy about that?
(Agree geography is a useless subject personally)

Thank you for your answers about HE and yes if you do have time later it would be interesting to see your actual reasons for HE.

Personally having read on here about HE and also about schools imposing cirriculums (do you include spelling in HE ) on 5 year olds I think there is a huge argument for HE when younger, it's when, as someone pointed out earlier, they get to secondary school and start learning about subjects you just have no knowledge about I think HE becomes not as valid (for want of a better word)

Madonna - also, I didn't mean calculus was purely a means to an end, I meant that if a child didn't automatically want to learn it just because it interested them, they may well learn it if they find they need it later on. Both motivations would be enough for them to learn it easily as they are intrinsic. If they dont' want to learn it 'for fun' and have no need to learn it as a means to an end, it doesn't matter if they don't ever learn it!

OK. Look, I have no argument with you. I really don't. I think HE is fascinating, and I have been tempted to go down that route before.

I think the OP was daft in referring to 'evidence'. I'm a science teacher. These words are important to me.

'All you anti-HE people....why are you on here?'

This is the only thread that you get this comment on!!
They are public threads-I give opinions on many things and although people disagree and might not like my comments they don't ask why am I there!
Are they just supposed to be a cosy self congratulatory threads?

OP asked why DCs go to school-it is hardly a representative opinion if you are only allowed to reply if you are anti school in the first place!

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Toffeepeople - it's not an either/or debate, it's a 'defending our choice to HE from uninformed attacks'! I'm not slating school, I'm defending HE

Libra - I just don't believe it would happen that children would not want to learn enough maths to survive in the world or to achieve what they want to achieve. And the same for English grammar. I do think this can happen in school when children start to separate learning from life and fun. Not sure if that makes sense.

Spelling - I just hope that'll come from reading a lot. My spelling is pretty good and I know most of that is from reading lots and lots and lots.

Bloss - I don't know how it happens either, but it does. I don't know the proportions of HEd chidlren going onto university nationally, but locally it's pretty high. And these chidlren graduate with good degrees. So somehow it happens...

Bloss - out of general interest, how much of your day to day life is taken up by using calculus? I am 44 and since leaving school never once have I needed it. Until now, when I am doing it with my son!

Not to be taken as sarcasm, as in order to pass an exam we do need that knowledge but thereafter more often than not, that type of topic is consigned to the bin for life.

"
Yep, definitely a different attitude to learning. While I don't believe in forcing people to do years of a subject they are crap in, I also think that an education which is merely instrumental ('what can I use it for?') is a superficial one."

But this just wouldn't happen though. A child is not going ot just learn what he needs - my point is that a child will learn what he needs plus all the extra stuff he's just interested in, and will learn it all to a very great level if he's really interested in it. I am trying to explain why school isn't strictly necessary. I don't think you and I are disagreeing, just misunderstanding eachother.

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While I would be extremely unlikely to HE my dd I can understand why some people choose to.

I think when people are truly happy with their choices they don't feel the need to run down the choices of others. I think your OP was all about running down the choice of the majority of parents to school educate/