European tour - an outsider's POV needed

[BuzzieLittleBee]

My friend is planning to visit from Australia at Christmas/New year. She has family here, and a couple of friends, and will spend mid-Dec to 2nd Jan with them (covering London, Devon, Midlands and Cotswolds). She then wants her kids (10 and 16) to have the chance to 'see Europe', and has found a coach tour with the following itinerary...

London to Paris, 2 nights in Paris
Paris to Lucerne (7hrs), 1 night in Lucerne
Lucerne to Venice (5hrs), 1 night in Venice
Venice to FLorence (3.5hrs), 1 night in Florence
Florence to Rome (3hrs), 2 nights in Rome

I've added the travel times as estimated by google maps, but in reality they'll be longer, as it's currently 11pm, and they'll travel by day and presumably stop en route!

To me, this seems utterly crazy. I totally get why she wants her kids to have a small taste of Europe, but I just can't imagine there being much enjoyment in this trip (esp during the first week of January when the weather isn't great, and it gets dark early).

I don't want to piss on her chips (as it were), but I'd like to put forward a more sensible/enjoyable alternative.

It's also a coach tour, and - drawing on stereotypes - I imagine it will be full of Americans of a certain age (much older than her/her family) and probably some Chinese/Japanese tourists - that's who I generally think of as being the target audience for these kinds of trips.

So - if you had 8 days (7 nights), and were a family of 4 - what would make sense to you? I don't imagine money will be an issue, as this tour is listed on the company's website at £2,300 pp!

I'm a foreigner living in the UK and I think it's bonkers. I know people do this type of tour but I don't like how busy this is. I think all you can tell her is look at sunset and travel time between the destination and leave her to it.

Personally, with only 8 days, I would only do two centers. For example, London and Paris. Then take day trips around the two cities.

I have a 10 and 16 year old (and I'm Australian fwiw) and this would never work for us. Both my DC would be like caged animals with that much time on a coach. If your friend wouldn't choose to drive Syd-Melb with her kids in one day, I'd definitely suggest she think about why that is. IME Kids don't get extra reserves of anti-boredom power just because they're in a new country.

Trains are excellent in my opinion as the kids can get up and wander around, but even then it's pushing it to do multiple long train travel days in a row.

If it were me I'd maybe consider train to Paris (2.5 hrs, 2 nights), train to Interlaken (5.5 hrs, preferably 3 nights stay so can go up the Schilthorn or similar on one of the days and have a break from trains the other day), then train to Rome (7 hrs if go early morning, stay 3 nights). Paris, Alps and Rome are a pretty great introduction to Europe - along with the scenery in between - and are just about doable in a week, although it would clearly be better to have 3-4 nights in each area if she could stretch to it.

Or could get the train from Interlaken to Zurich then fly to Rome the same day. Airports do tend to waste time but both the Rome and Zurich airports aren't far out of the city so might be sensible for that leg to save a big day on the train, and you'd have a chance to see the alps from the air if the weather is clear

Another option: Ditch Paris.

Fly London to Innsbruck (3 nights), gorgeous little city and can go on day trip to alps or the alpine zoo or olympic ski jump etc.

Then train down to Venice (5.5hrs) for 2 nights

Then train down to Rome (4 hrs) for 3 nights.

Very relaxed and likely to be really fun. I'd probably go for that option if the kids aren't set on seeing the Eiffel tower.

I'm definitely going to suggest to avoid Paris. It is a lovely city, but I don't think it's a 'must see'. They will have plenty of time in London and can do many of the same kinds of things there as they would in Paris (galleries, cathedrals, river etc), and in not-nice weather Paris can be gloomy. I think they'd be much better hot footing it to Rome (or somewhere in Italy).

I don't think I'd particularly recommend the Alps either. They spent a couple of years living in NZ, very close to the Southern Alps (which IMO are equally as spectacular as the European Alps), and whilst Interlaken and Lucerne are both nice enough, they're not nice enough to make the cut on a limited 8-day trip, I'd say.

Ooooh ok. Alps out. How about train to Amsterdam, fly to Venice, train to Rome? All very different and fabulous.

Incidentally is the 8 days from 2 Jan their actual limit, or is that just the coach itinerary they found? If they could stretch to longer OR just start later in Jan, they could avoid European school hols for the most popular places. I think most of italy goes back to school on 7th Jan after epiphany so Venice and Rome would both be much less crowded and more enjoyable after that.

That’s alot of sitting in the coach! If they’re travelling those distances, they must only have a morning ,or afternoon) in each place.

I think two or three nights in Paris, then catch a train to be Amsterdam (or another city) would be better, and do two or three nights there.

They have to be back home for a specific date in Jan (I can't remember the exact date) for a wedding, so they are limited on time. Their whole trip will be around a month, but includes Disney on the way and Dubai on the way home too. I'd be exhausted after that, and need a holiday!

Yes that sounds just completely shattering! I hope the kids are good travellers 😬

Thinking about it I think it sounds ok now you’ve explained the other things they are doing on their epic holiday.
It would be nice to not have to think how to get to the hotel or what hotels to book etc. I did a similar trip in Cambodia before a river cruise in a luxury coach and it was actually very enjoyable. All excursions were planned for me and it was really nice to sit back and relax.

I'd second the cruise as they could cover 7 cities in 7 days but I don't think they do them in January.
I would do a flight and then trains. Trains would still involve long journeys but so much more pleasant than a coach.Fly to Rome, then train up to Vienna, Swizerland, Paris then fly or train back to London.

My in-laws, they live in Oz but are Asian, did some kind of European bus tour with a Chinese tour group. Father in-law speaks Mandarin, mother-in-law not really. They did something like 5 or 6 countries in 2 weeks, they saw the outside of the Colosseum in Rome and drove past the Eiffel tower in Paris, got off a bus in a Swiss mountain resort. They loved it and were fine with not going into these amazing sights, but they don't speak English so I think they would have lacked confidence to do anything independently. I am sure the Colosseum has an audio guide in Mandarin but asking anyone for help getting from A to B would have been challenging. It would though have been my idea of a nightmare. Each to their own I guess.

That is exactly what I was going to suggest! River cruises are not as limiting (you don't end up spending all your time sitting on a seat while you travel - you can get up and do other things) and night crusing is often far more picturesque than driving in the dark. Equally, a Med cruise? Bigger ship, more for teenagers to do? But to me either of those will be more interesting for a teenager than being stuck on a bus watching Europe go by.

It just occured to me to add - if stuck with January, why not go with the flow, leave Europe for another time, and think about Iceland or Scandinavia. If you really want to go with cold and dark, then why not do it in an area that they celebrate cold and dark? There are opportunities to do husky mushing, northern lights, dark sky lodges (they have glass walls/roof so you can stay warm and still see the sky like it's supposed to be seen)...

In my experience it's not unusual for Australians to "do Europe" like that, simply because of the distance to get here and making the most of it. It's utter madness to most European minds.

If they were proposing that coach trip in late spring/early summer then they'd see a fair bit (of mostly motorway) from the coach windows. But over xmas/new year it's short days and a lot of darkness.

I'd cut back on the destinations, and make use of cheap flights and overnight trains. One German market, once city in Italy, one city in France (why not Paris? - it has a lot of 'big ticket' locations such as Tour Eifel, Arc de Triomphe, Notre Dame - stop thinking like a European when suggesting they should avoid Paris), and one other - maybe Bruges?

I think the reality is that her kids will probably come at some point when they're adults (or a gap year etc). She lived here for a year as a young teen (hence the connection in the first place), and her DH has never been. It's kind of a 'once in a lifetime' thing, and I totally get that they want to see iconic 'stuff'. It's all the history, grand buildings, amazing cities etc that they just don't have. They lived in NZ (near the mountains) so they've had lots of experience of the 'great outdoors' and amazing as Scandinavia and Iceland are, it's not what they want from the trip. And I get that.

My reservations are just about spending too much time on a bus (which is just wasted time) and then not seeing much of the places.

If she has the money to spent then it's worth reminding her that we have cheap flights and rail in Europe. It's a MUCH better way to do it than coach. Australia doesn't have this in the same way.

If she wants to do Europe in a multi centred trip, she'd be better to select two or three cities and spent two nights in each or she won't 'see' any of them. Train is generally quicker for getting from city centre to city centre which is where tourist attractions are. AND they have a tendency to be more comfortable/scenic than the road option. There's some incredible train journeys throughout Europe too.

Florence is utterly pointless for one night for example. You won't see shit. Ditto Venice. You get to tick them off a list but that's it. She'd be better doing Paris, cheap flight to Italy, get the train around and then fly back to London. Or something similar. She has the money to do that. Getting the train in Italy is surprisingly easy - it's all ticket machines so no need to talk Italian.

DH and I like to do multiple centred trips in Europe. We do more than most people and what is probably sensible. Even I say that trip is stupid. Honestly stopping one night in places is hard work and not much fun and I'd only do it in the car because you can take breaks and stop to see things on the way. We've done it before and genuinely when we've had two nights in the same place it's been much much better and more enjoyable.

The Danube option on that budget is a good suggestion too, if she wants something more organised.

Honestly that trip is for people who don't have a clue about Europe.

Don't get me wrong - I love Paris! But I think they'd get more of a contrast by going to Italy and Spain (and maybe Berlin). The Eiffel Tower is the thing that's most unique to Paris (there are grand cathedrals, monuments, galleries and iconic streets in other cities) - I think if you were picking and choosing (say) 4 European cities which are well connected and contrasting from each other, (and 1 was definitely London) then I just wouldn't include Paris. I'd go Rome for the ancient history, Berlin for the modern history and somewhere in Spain.

Don't neglect the Disney effect, and the desire to "see Europe". Ask them for a list of the ten things in Europe they'd most like to see, and then come back and say you can omit Paris!

You and I might choose not to include Paris on such a trip. But I can get on the train for lunch in Paris and be back home in the UK for bed time. For them it's 16+ hours each way. It's less costly for us to miss it out.

Berlin is not a huge contrast with London. It’s quite similar in many ways with probably fewer iconic buildings. Great for German history of course!

Venice is so different. Also Rome. Both world class destinations and easy to get to. Paris is world class in many ways. Just because it’s near, it’s got so much to see and do that’s iconic.

Going to Scandinavia in winter is low hours of daylight! Why do this? Going south is far better but they need to decide what’s interesting to them. The Alps - why in high season?

See Paris seems to be the city I've missed somehow. I went once when I was 14 on the way to EuroDisney with school. We didn't see much because it was on a coach going 'and there's the Eiffel Tower' blink and you miss it. (This is to be rectified this year).

I've never felt I've missed out on Paris particularly though because there are some other really grand European cities.

I rate Amsterdam as fab as it's different to some of the other European great cities - it's canals are far better than Venice which gets poor reviews and generally regarded as over rated.

I really rate Budapest. It's striking. And cheaper than many other European cities. It lots to do. It had the nickname of the Paris of East Europe and I can really see why.

I have to say I love Barcelona but think Seville was overrated and I don't really get all the fuss over it.

If they want to do a multi city trip they would be better looking at what routes give them the most for their time here, rather than perhaps particular cities.

As previous poster says, if they REALLY want to do Paris they could get flights from London and stay for a night and come back the next day. And Paris is a hub for many other cities in Europe so you could do it as a tag on at the beginning/end of a few days elsewhere.

Or do something like fly to Amsterdam, get the train to Paris, then fly to Italy for three days and train around on the train there.

Madness.

There is far more to see and absorb culturallly aesthetically and gastronomically in an ancient European city than these people might be expecting.

That sort of itinerary smacks of tick it off the list and take a photo type for social media type tourism. As for a coach trip. Just no. The utter horror.

I would choose three cities absolutely max- maybe Paris, Seville and Rome. Train between or if you must, fly. Or just two Paris and Seville.

Something like this could be fun for them if they can find a cruise where the dates work.

Budapest in Feb will be pretty forbidding, whereas some of the blossom might have come out in Seville. Always stay as close to the historic core as you can afford.

Vienna is another good suggestion.