Arrrrgh! How to support DC in uni choice

[SinuousTendrils]

So DD has finally decided on PPE for her course having pivoted between literature and maths all year.
At last year's open days she loved Warwick's philosophy and maths courses but was not keen on the campus or the idea of living near Coventry.
She loved Durham, loved the PPE course but is concerned about the number of public school types (after ruling out oxbridge for this reason) It is also far away from home.
She felt right at home in Sheffield but isn't sure if the course is as good....
She has no idea what to do but wishes she could take the Warwick course in Sheffield.
Dors anyone have knowledge about the PPE course at Sheff? Warwick was a particular draw as they teach continental.
Thank you.

No it isn't but it's the reality of life.

My son went to a poor performing secondary school with lots of poverty and diversity. At his 6th form getting into a RG type university let alone an elite one was seen as an achievement.

Not surprisingly starting at a good non elite university has been a bit of a culture shock. I suspect an elite one would be even worse.

I think it's easy for those in the majority suggesting it should be easy for those in the minority to mix easily with other groups but I doubt many of those have the experience of these situations.

It's like when people were somehow surprised when Sunak said he didn't have any working class friends.

No grammars nearby?

I am an immigrant so I do have an idea of what assimilation requires; granted I wasn’t 18 when I arrived here.

Beginning university is a culture shock for everyone (though probably having been to boarding school helps with the social side of the adjustment - those students are a tiny minority). IME every struggling first term tutee, and there are many, sees the situation through the lens of their personal background.

I am sure certain backgrounds - and coming from an academically deprived school is one of them - do exacerbate the situation. But FWIW it’s helpful to remember that almost everyone is feeling the same way, and feeling that something in their own background makes their situation worse than everyone else’s. (Even if it is just bad skin or teeth.) Though objectively they know that’s ridiculous and would never say so, of course.

Has DS explored any societies, clubs or sporting opportunities, traditional or alternative? It may sound trite, and it may take a few attempts before you find something that feels right. But I have seen such connections make a big difference time and again.

Best wishes to him.

He will be fine as he is pretty sociable and knew a few people going before he started.

I agree it's difficult for any child starting but I suspect it's more difficult for those in the minority which children from poorer backgrounds will be.

Therefore I can't see anything wrong with them considering which university is more suitable for them taking into account various aspects.

It's easy for people not affected to say it's not something to worry about.

It's no different in my opinion to those choosing certain mid rankings universities because of their high uptake of those from affluent backgrounds.

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2020/oct/19/students-from-northern-england-facing-toxic-attitude-at-durham-university

Nope, that's not what I said at all.

Everyone needs to choose a university where they can thrive. Luckily in my STEM field the affluent will come to the likes of us or to the COWI institutions if they can, rather than sticking together.

@Emyj15 But they are making that problem for themselves! You do know that those on full maintenance can often get bursaries as well don’t you? They are often better off than those who appear more affluent but parents don’t pay their share! DH had this moons ago. These dc have to work. Often the poorest don’t need to. I think you completely over state the poor little me syndrome. It’s not necessary to find equivalent. Those with little are not necessarily from deprived families.

I don't claim to know what the university experience is like for dc who went to boarding school, or dc from deprived backgrounds either for that matter. Why do you think you have the slightest idea what it's like for "the poorest"?

Not sure of the point here.

As said before children tend to mix with people from similar backgrounds like adults do.

It's not generally about envy or not liking people who are wealthy or privately educated. It's the same generally the other way round.

People simply tend to gravitate to those they have more in common with.

Elite universities rightly or wrongly have a reputation of having mainly children from well off backgrounds so it's not surprising children not from those backgrounds will have concerns about fitting in.

It's no difference to some worrying about going to universities in certain cities as they are worried about crime.

The above would be the last thing my son would be worrying about.

I find this attitude expressed peculiarly, and I have chosen the word carefully, British. It verges on cliquishness.

You do know that the UK has distinctly subpar class mobility? Do you think this desirable?

The student quoted in @SinuousTendrils article said:
“At first when they mocked and mimicked my accent, I sort of went along with it, even laughed, but then when I persistently became the butt of jokes about coalmining and started to get called feral because I was local it started to feel malicious,”
This is one students experience. However, there are others and students surveyed have said similar. I have said on this thread and others that inverted snobbery occurs and is not appropriate. However, snobbery does occur as well and it isnt a pleasant experience. Maybe young people in the UK are more aware of background influencing social relationships than in other countries. However, I dont think the issue can be seen as the sole responsibility or fault of less well off students. Students can and do worry about fitting in and the possibility of being mocked for your accent or background can be daunting. Maybe sometimes such worries are misplaced, but sometimes they arent. I wish it wasnt the case and didnt feed into decisions about HE choices, but it isnt as simple as saying less well off students are the problem - it is them who dont want to mix.

No I'm not surprised. The education system favours those with wealth meaning those who can afford can buy houses in areas for their children to attend the best schools, afford private education etc which means less mixing with children from different backgrounds.

Life is made hard for children from minority groups including those from poor backgrounds.

This doesn't stop at 18 when they attended university.

It's pretty natural for them to feel comfortable around those with similar experiences when you consider how many have been treated when they have tried to come out of their comfort zone.

I know this was an awful experience, completely unacceptable. Upper class twats are worse than lower class twats.

I just don’t think anyone should be saying ‘It’s only natural that people prefer to mix with their own kind’ as if this is desirable at university, of all places.

I attended a state school and have an RP accent. I was picked on at my university for being ‘posh’, based on how I speak. My son has the same accent. At a uni offer holder day a few months ago he was asked if he votes Tory because he ‘sounds posh’.

Wouldn’t it be nice if nobody judged anybody else. Obviously that will never happen. It would be nice though.

I don’t think it is desirable that people don’t mix. I just think there are reasons why young people may be cautious about entering environments where many people are likely to come from more privileged backgrounds than them. We need to work to alleviate those worries so students from all backgrounds feel comfortable opting for highly selective institutions. However, I think the issue and the solutions are much more complex than ‘less well off students are cliquish or don’t want to mix - they need to sort themselves out’.
Unfortunately, casual snobbery isn’t dead in the Uk. When you feel people looking down on you it is not great.

You really are very keen to prove your lint aren’t you?

I agree with all of this. I only object to any idea that class divisions are natural and, implicitly, should be maintained at university.

How awful. As I am not British all of this still makes me do a double take.

Is your DS at this university now? If so, how is he finding it?

I don't know what lint means in this context. I posted the article someone DMed to me as they didn't want to be exposed to some of the comments I've received.
I posted the article to illustrate the idea that students from working class backgrounds may be apprehensive in applying to universities such as Durham, which is really all I was expressing in my OP.

I think you are overthinking this and making assumptions based on lack of knowledge.

My dd went to Bristol which had at that time rep for being very private school heavy, there is plenty of info out there about the social mixes in the various halls of residence. She opted for a non catered hall with a reputation of having a good mix and she was in a flat of 24 with only 2 who had been to private school (she was one of them). Luckily she found a lovely state school educated bf and they are still together, so no red trousers for us 😁

He may find that some private school educated people are actually not that bad, that there are also plenty of non private school educated and international students. And to be frank if he is going into politics or similar (or indeed any career) he needs to be able to deal with people of all "classes" and from all walks of life, so it may not be a bad thing.

My DD ruled out Oxbridge because she didn't like the college system and because it was too dull. Durham she never thought about as it wasn't any good for her subject. She is very arty so Bristol appealed.

What sort of environment do you think your ds would thrive in? Has he considered London (LSE for eg) What did he like about Sheffield? Has he looked at Edinburgh or Southampton?

No, he decided to go to one of the ‘posh reputation’ unis instead! The course suited him better. He’s a few weeks in and happy and settled. Thank you for asking ☺️

@poetryandwine I don’t believe there’s much difference! A twat is a twat. The background simply doesn’t matter. They are a minority.

@Owlbookend It cuts both ways though doesn’t it. The dc with a RP accent is mocked. Posh accents are continually mocked. It’s childish and learned behaviour - usually from parents.

Its obvious why dc don’t manage to escape their backgrounds: family norms keep them in their place. “It’s not for the likes of us” - I’ve witnessed this in close family! Going to university used to open eyes: everyone came into a student's orbit. Now, it’s stick with your crowd. The state school crowd though is the largest at every single university. So why anyone is put off anywhere is just down to ill informed rubbish. It’s a sad reflection on how families still influence dc when dc should be far more open to
meeting a wider spectrum of people.

Not only does it cause issues at university, it causes issues when they look for jobs too. They see some jobs as off limits. It’s utterly senseless.

I agree that thankfully twats are a minority. But I think the more advantages you’ve had, the less excuse there is for being a twat. Not that anyone has a good excuse, of course.