Post grad law conversions - reality of the usefulness of this?

[BobtheFrog]

One of my DDs is looking to a post grad degree, law conversion in particular - looking for some mumsnet wisdom about this route. Good idea? Concerns / questions we should consider? Does it lead to meaningful work? What kind of work is down this route?

All I can say is that there are a whole clutch of successful Magic Circle trainees who say otherwise.

My dd is studying law at a top university but doesn’t want to qualify as a solicitor (2 solicitor parents will do that to you). The idea that posters are trying to over egg the pudding re how competitive it is to try and put off a bit of competition is laughable.
I don’t say anything on here that I wouldn’t say to a yp or their parent asking me in real life.
I personally feel really angry that some universities are taking money off them and giving false hope that they’d be able to have a legal career.
I’ve seen cv’s recently from yp with a 4 in English language gcse, no maths and a 2.2 from a uni ranked 100th for law. Plus they had done a masters, another institution taking their money.
I’ve conducted several paralegal interviews rounds in last few years. I see every cv. Some were repeat attempts and had secured nothing in gap between applications. Others were working in min wage jobs like waitresses, factories. Some in low paid roles vaguely related to legal - solar panel claims, debt recovery work. Chance of getting a paralegal role let alone a tc role is nil.
If OP’s daughter asked me should I pay/get masters loan to do a law conversion with a 2.2 and no tc or paralegal role lined up I’d say no.

There are a whole clutch of magic circle trainees who say that you are not more likely to improve your chances of getting a training contract if you've had some legal work experience?

I don't think so.

Anyway I'm out. The OP's child should not do a law conversion course. Everything else is pointless bickering and people can make up their own minds.

Of course I know exactly which firms are Magic Circle. What on earth makes you think I don’t - what an odd thing to come up with.

I joined in the Eighties Serafee. I certainly never said I was still there. I don’t owe it to you or anybody to divulge more details than I wish.

And also, of course it’s possible to be comfortable oneself while still recognising that DC from well off families are cushioned in a way others aren’t.

My Dc doesn’t broadcast her connections but she has been called a law nepo baby. She’s definitely had opportunities and exposure she wouldn’t have had without connections. She been to legal conferences, worked as an assistant etc.
Whether that would assist with securing a formal vacation scheme I wouldn’t know as she hasn’t applied as doesn’t want to qualify.
If she did and got a place people may assume it was due to who she was related to? But in reality she does have the top grades, high ranking uni for law and is confident and personable with a full cv.

IME the nepotism point is no longer a factor at larger firms. Recruitment is now far more standardised and even to bring your child/godson/whoever into the office for a single day would be looked on pretty poorly. (Obviously it's still useful to have contacts in law who can advise you on applications etc.)

At smaller firms it goes on a lot more. Can't speak about bazzas.

SpringisnearlySpring I have never come across anyone who tries to put off competition but heaps of parents massively exaggerate the difficulty of eg passing the 11+, getting into Oxbridge, getting into uni to read Medicine and now this as another example. I don’t think parents do it with a particular motive myself, I was merely humouring Ceramiq and her talk of parental subterfuge.

Not exactly what I said. I said (or intended to say) that there are plenty of successful Magic Circle trainees and new associates who got offers without connections or legal work experience beyond vac schemes and that’s because they were better and more able than other applicants.

Coincidentally (or not??) a tik tok came up for me today from a solicitor 7 years pqe with a 2.2. She was a teen mum and had secured her tc at a law centre as she had lived experience of issues facing clients like homelessness. She sets out what she had done to overcome the 2.2. But again she applied 10 yrs ago very different from today.

I thikn we can probably all agree it is pretty competitive. May be I should ask AI to do some calculations based on page 5 years after end of 1st degree based on jobs that are very higly paid and those not and show how the odds increase as the pay goes up NQ lawyers in a very few firms on £120k etc I bet it is a fairly market forces equation - high pay = loads of people want the jobs; very low paid - much less competition.

As I said above 4 of my children are now solicitors (three are in -house solicitors now - that is easier to get, lower paid and shorter hours and they are happy).

Competition for desirable careers is extreme right now. One of our DC has just been accepted on a Masters course for next year - it is interesting to see who among fellow students who applied did and didn't get in. It would appear that relevant international work experience, language fluency, dual nationality are critical to success: none of those things are taught on the pre-requisite undergraduate degrees.

Whilst the larger firms funding SQE attract thousands of applicants we are still absolutely inundated at low pay end. I’ve just checked and we pay paralegals £14.13 an hour.

Crikey. Why do they do it to themselves?

Not everyone wants corporate (I never did). Help people/make a difference to your local community.
Point I’m making is these types of roles are going to law graduates now (most recent hire has a 1st class law degree from a top 20 uni and a distinction law masters) In past the roles were were sort of one step above admin candidates would only have GCSEs.
I had quite a snotty email from a candidate in mid 20s incredulous she hadn’t got an interview. She had a none RG 2.1. A masters. Plus a self funded law conversion and lpc. But virtually no paid work or work experience. She obviously thought it would be low competition for a low paid job with us. Sadly mistaken.

Springisnearlyspring absolutely. And plenty who dive lemming like over the corporate cliff fairly soon regret that choice and find something which they find far more personally fulfilling. That is very definitely true of Magic Circle lawyers. It was in my day and it still is as true today. Money isn’t everything for many, many very bright people.

Unless you’re talking about one particular master’s degree. In which case that isn’t really relevant to the wider job market. Masses of masters are simply cash cows for the uni in question anyhow. If you can pay the fees you’re highly unlikely to be rejected, for the most part. Perhaps those who didn’t get offers on this particular course were reliant on external funding.

<yawn> we know you live in the dark ages when a 3 year undergraduate degree was considered an education

I'm struggling to think of a single one of my DC who doesn't have more than a three year undergraduate degree. Couldn't manage. They range between four years undergrad/ postgrad to seven years (the ones with/ doing DPhils/ PhDs).

Your comment is just silly.

But all of my DC have also managed to secure full funding, so it's been quite straightforward, thankfully.

I’m actually wondering why we persist in offering so many law degrees. There’s huge over-supply. It’s simply unfair to many thousands of students. It’s about time there was an upper limit on numbers.

It’s the same with medicine OhDear111. Far too many graduates and not enough jobs for those at the lower end of the ability range. Fully agree with you.

Incidentally Ceramiq, just to add to my response to your comment above: not only did all of my DC do postgrad, it’s occurred to me just now that three have also taught at uni level: the one who’s now an academic post holder taught undergrads at Oxford while doing their DPhil, another did the same at UCL while doing theirs, and the third teaches on the postgrad law course at Oxford (just one particular module, but even so). So I don’t think it’s accurate to infer that that we or even I don’t value education. I’ve no idea what comments such as yours are intended to add to this conversation.

My DD is applying for vacation schemes which are seen as a necessary step on the way to a grant for PGL snd SQE and then TC.

My husband and I are not in the Legal profession. What I have noticed is this:

1. A levels matter
2. Reputation of the university matters
3. uni grades matter
4. You have to pass online aptitude and personality assessments to be invited to an AC
5. You have to write well, each application is pages and pages, spelling and grammar really matter
6. Interviewers have consistently asked technical finance questions rather than anything about law (brush up on PE!)
7. You can show interest in law without personal connections to pull strings (if this is even possible)- mooting, marshalling and volunteering at CAB, Forage courses, etc. are available to all

There are a lot of hoops to jump through, both objective and subjective.

I have no idea if my DC will manage to get a training contract with grant for conversion and SQE. It’s competitive.

Not everyone studying law wants to qualify it’s a rigorous academic degree useful for many careers. It’s also cheap to run and some universities attract large numbers of international students (from common law jurisdictions) onto the courses so big money spinners.
I’d like to see stats of how many from each uni go onto qualify as a solicitor or barrister. Maybe law society/sra or bar council could collect info at point of admission or call. So what undergraduate uni, law or none law. Some institutions would have zero entrants to the professions I suspect.

@Milmington Yes - training of doctors is political and now there’s a lot of noise about lack of training positions.
@EscapadeVelocity No. Barristers do law conversion too. They complete the Barrister training course after that and that’s got around 2500 students on it now. Around 450-500 pupilages. Some dc won’t want positions in the uk, but even so! Course is £18,000.