Post grad law conversions - reality of the usefulness of this?

[BobtheFrog]

One of my DDs is looking to a post grad degree, law conversion in particular - looking for some mumsnet wisdom about this route. Good idea? Concerns / questions we should consider? Does it lead to meaningful work? What kind of work is down this route?

https://www.chambersstudent.co.uk/law-firms/getting-a-training-contract/application-and-selection-criteria

This lists min A levels and degree classification for training contracts.

I think the job situation after the post grad course is most important consideration- law is very competitive, what are the chances they will end up with a training contract/decent job prospects?

I did it 20 years ago. There is no need to do it anymore to be a solicitor. You can just do the SQE instead.

Law is one of the careers most under threat from AI. Getting a job might be hard. Is she at all interested in computer science?
ETA Data science is a big and growing area of employment too.

Is she interested in law and legal practice at all?

@BobtheFrog Has your DD actually got a 2:2? If so, I’d say do not do a law conversion. She’s unlikely to get monetary help towards the fees, although some I think are now masters so you can get a loan.

As for worth, yes they lead to work. My dd took this route and is a barrister. However she did the GDL 10 years ago now but had a better academic degree. Virtually no one with a 2:2 will get anywhere. They will take your money but getting a job after is problematic. Barristers go on to their own training course but the mandatory pupillage positions are hugely competitive.

I would truly look at something else.

@Spirallingdownwards That number for pupillage places is high. In reality it’s probably not that. Many who are taken on as barristers are not necessarily recent students either. It’s quite common for someone to have a first career and then convert to law. That’s partially why non law degrees look quite high.

The other thing, that’s never talked about, is that sets might offer 2 or 3 pupillages but don’t offer tenancy to any candidate or maybe one out of three. That year can be competitive too. None of the people getting pupillages is anything other than the best but I’ve seen a starred first Cambridge grad get rejected. It’s about face fitting. Going into this is very hard.

American solicitors in London work their employees harder than anyone else. DD has very high earning friends but the hours…….. Not everyone can hack it.

@OhDear111 Why do you think pp’s estimate of 650 pupillages is too high? It looks bang on to me. In 2024-25 the number starting pupillage was 630, and the trend has been a rising one for some years now.

It will of course depend on where you are applying, and it does not surprise me that the likes of Slaughters want a "traditional" trainee. I know of two trainees currently without a law degree. One is in house (albeit with very significant experience as a legal secretary in conveyancing, and then paralegalling in IP), and the other in a niche City firm with incredibly impressive academics and self-taught knowledge.

www.thefru.org.uk/volunteers/are-you-eligible

@Juja "She is also training as an immigration advice advisor with the aim of doing pro bono work with a local refugee charity once she has passed her exams."

I know someone who did exactly this two years ago and it completely killed applications. She then removed it from her CV and got plenty of interviews as her profile was in all other respects excellent.

Honestly, the 2:2 will be a huge problem for her. She may one day qualify if she works with a high street firm for a while and they give her a TC, or if she qualifies as a legal exec. But she’s going to have to be really determined that a career in law is for her, because it won’t be easy and it will take a lot of time. She will come across a lot of rejection.

I qualified as a solicitor in 2019 and I don’t know anyone in my cohort who got a 2:2 at uni. Ironically some of the partners did, but they qualified at a time when it wasn’t so competitive.

The correlation between a first class degree and passing is VERY interesting.

@HighburyHope I should have been clearer. The latest report on the pupillage gateway says there are fewer positions in chambers but more at the employed bar. People tend to think these pupillages are entirely at the self employed bar, whereas 20% are not. All are going to be very competitive though.

A first class degree helps at the Bar too. More with a first get the highest pass on the bar course. These courses suit people with all round high intelligence. Those with more compartmentalised achievements find some areas more challenging.

@Ceramiq yes definitely which makes it understandable firms want a 1st or 2.1.
January sitting results are out today.

Do be careful re outdated advice, things have changed a lot in recent years with SQE. The bottle neck to be a solicitor used to be the need to secure a training contract. Now a training contract isn’t required. Yp can qualify using 2 years qualifying work experience which can just be in one area or they can use different experiences to add up to 2 years.

Larger firms are still offering formal training contracts and will fund SQE but outside that most people are working as paralegals and self funding SQE.

Some firms and local govt were using level 7 apprenticeship for those joining with law degrees or conversions. So they would work 4 days and do SQE 1 day day release. The govt have abolished the levy funding for that from 2026 which has killed this route. Solicitor Apprenticeship route still available for under 22 but like hens teeth.

SQE is a rigorous exam. SQE1 tests legal knowledge. While technically a law degree or law conversion isn’t required to sit SQE in reality virtually all will have a law degree or conversion. I believe BPP are having it as a requirement to protect their SQE pass rate.

Yes, understandable from a law firm recruitment position but also incredibly interesting in the light of current debates about the value added of university degrees and the lack of objective performance measures.

Mazur case is currently in Court of Appeal.

Firms had been operating under a model of unqualified staff supervised by qualified but the Mazur case has thrown all that into doubt. It also has had massive ramifications for Legal Executives often of many years experience.

The outcome could massively shift how firms organise themselves and workforce staffing.

https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/news-focus/in-depth-mazur-defeat-could-slam-the-door-on-the-next-generation/5125962.article

@Ceramiq there’s no breakdown on SQE stats between those who have a law degree and those with a conversion which I wish they would do.
Other stats like younger people more likely to pass, those with a first much more likely to pass make total sense to me.
It’s still a very new route. I know there are concerns from diversity perspective as candidates from certain ethnic backgrounds less likely to pass, pass rate higher for privately educated people etc.

I went back to work as a paralegal having been a carer for years and previously a solicitor. I was dismayed by the numbers of paralegals with excellent qualifications from the best red brick universities with a high 2.1 who can’t get training contracts. My daughter has a 1st from a top university and there was no way she was going to try to do law. I just think that things are impossible for graduates.

I would apply for a clerical job with the CPS eg case manager and see if they will train you up. Legal executive is another route to take so that you could train on the job and ultimately become a solicitor. There are also other organisation who might train you if you work as a paralegal.

I’d suspect there’s also a strong link between ranking of uni your degree is from and SQE pass rate. They don’t release these stats.
My dc is studying law at a top 10 ranked uni and it’s very much same as I did on my law degree 30 years ago. Rigorous in person 3 hour exams. Other unis we went to open days for were more mixed eg coursework, group work counted to final mark.
If you are used to sitting tough all or nothing exams you’ll be better equipped for SQE would be my guess.

That 2.2 is not going to look good on any job application to be brutally honest. It’s basically a badge to tell employers that you went to uni but didn’t study very hard. If she does a postgrad she might at least be able to hide it by putting the postgrad qualification on her cv instead of the degree.

I have just posted this on another thread

"Law is no longer a solid choice unless you're really at the top of your game and even then most people won't ever earn £200k.

Most firms now only recruit trainees via their internships. Most firms have reduced the number of trainees they are taking on since AI is changing the game significantly. DC with 4 A* and on track for a First has an internship place this year and had to make around 40 applications to get it. Each application takes around 5-6 hours which was then followed by many hours of critical thinking testing, situational judgment testing, online virtual interviews, assessment centres and in person interviews. They had over 2000 applications for their internship scheme and with the number of places on the scheme compared to the number of training contracts available, even at this stage he only has a 1 in 5 chance of getting a spot. If he had a training contract at this particular firm (international firm) he would earn c60k in a regional office once he qualifies (in four years' time) but would have to reach equity partner level to get to £200k which takes many years and isn't an automatic progression (London office would be different and attracts a premium).

This process isn't particular to the big firms. It's all firms. It is not the case that there are lots of jobs available at smaller lower paid firms which are much easier to get.

If you make it then great but the opportunities are really hard to come by. We are a family of lawyers and in my day, whilst it was tough to get a training contract, it truly was nothing like this. The universities are pumping out five times as many law graduates each year as there are jobs (and then you have the law conversion crowd which adds another c40% and also the graduates from previous years who are still trying to find a place) Nobody should be starting law school unless they already have a training contract lined up since only 40% of those going to law school manage to pass the new solicitors qualification exams, most won't have a job at the end of it and unless they have sponsorship they will end up massively in debt.

So yes, in law you can potentially earn £200k if you work very hard and have a lot of luck on your side but it is now extremely difficult to get a job in the first place and anyone saying otherwise is lying (or has out of date knowledge of the process and job market) I don't recommend it to anyone anymore and I think its sad that so many kids are sold a fairytale."

OP I'm afraid your DD just will not get a job with a 2.2. It's simply not realistic. ABB at A Level will also be a challenge for her. Even in smaller firms the competition is immense. The same people are applying for those roles as are applying to the top law firms. She shouldn't even think of starting law school to do a conversion course until she has secured a training contract and securing a training contract is highly unlikely. Sorry.

@Serafee Good luck to your son.
I always describe it as brutally competitive but I think parents and yp have no idea unless been through it recently.
I see all applications for paralegal to my team (no AI or HR sift) It make me very cross that some education providers are taking money off them when they have zero prospects of ever progressing to a legal career.
I don’t think postgraduate course providers should admit those with 2.2 undergraduate.
I’m in a low paying none glamorous area of local government law. I advertised a legal admin role (min wage) and was inundated with applicants with degrees and masters inc from Oxbridge. The person who got the role had a law degree and many years admin experience.

It's honestly crazy. It's like it's just a money making machine now. Law school places should be limited IMO. Back in the day you went to The College of Law or Nottingham Law School or BPP and that was it. Now there are hundreds of providers and no corresponding increase in jobs. You certainly shouldn't be allowed to do SQE with a 2.2.

DH and I are both partners 26/30 years PQE. Even with our knowledge of the profession and our involvement in recruitment (DH in particular interviews very frequently) we have both been gobsmacked by the level of competition and the level of detail involved in the processes. DS has four A stars at A level, he is likely to get a first from a top university. He has masses of legal work experience and has had a part time job throughout uni. He is on the executive committees for two relevant societies at university and is involved in a sport where he competed in the British Championships. He is bright, personable and confident. I've looked over various of his applications to make sure he's on the right track. I'm not sure really what more he could do but yet he's had rejection after rejection, mainly just before AC stage. His summer VS is at a very good firm so we are keeping everything crossed.

I'm not letting him start law school without a training contract offer. He will need to do a further application round if necessary. It seems it's increasingly common for them to have to do 2/3 application rounds.

A law conversion is no longer necessary, I didn't do one. I did my undergrad at a RG uni in a humanities subject and graduated with a 2.1. I then secured a role as a paralegal and did the SQE (online/self-taught) whilst working and achieved results in the first quintile across the board. My firm retained me as an NQ. I'm now 2PQE.

Your child may find it helpful to improve their legal knowledge/CV but it isn't necessary.