Post grad law conversions - reality of the usefulness of this?

[BobtheFrog]

One of my DDs is looking to a post grad degree, law conversion in particular - looking for some mumsnet wisdom about this route. Good idea? Concerns / questions we should consider? Does it lead to meaningful work? What kind of work is down this route?

@Springisnearlyspring. This was published last December by Legal Futures. Looking at the universities, it is predictable. The LNAT universities will be providing most London Barristers. Regions - more local universities.

Non law is still high: half of those surveyed, but subjects taken are interesting. I’d also say the pupillage award average is high. Looking at Legal Cheek, 34 Chambers are listed at giving more than £75,000 pupillage award. That might be a bit low but out of, say, 500 available, the average is unlikely to be this high even if the 34 offer 3 pupillages each.

It also asserts crime and family pay poorly. That wholly depends what sort of work you do and quality of chambers work. The fact that next to no one saw their work as helping vulnerable people, I think crime, personal injury, family and human rights barristers were not in the survey!

The London bar is different from the regional bar too in terms of unis attended (heavily Oxbridge in London but not elsewhere) but a 2:2 is not ok and neither is a low ranking uni. I also think it would be rare to find Harvard educated barristers being in criminal law. So there are flaws with the survey - it’s definitely the commercial bar who responded! Had they looked at a broad spectrum I think Oxbridge would have featured less.

Forgot to attach it!

OhDear111 my DC's chambers isn't exclusively commercial but is offering pupillage awards of £90k for 2027.

Thanks for attaching that - really interesting.

By contrast the most prestigious set in the nearest city to home (in a fairly affluent part of the country) offers £25k overall, of which £12.5k is a grant and £12.5k is guaranteed earnings in the second six months of the pupillage year.

https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/going-to-university-does-still-pay-if-its-the-right-one-6050xb3hl

@Milmington That’s why the 34 are more than £75,000. Most are below and of course regional ones are. Some include 2nd six earnings in the amount they state though and others don’t. DD didn’t get a high award but 2nd six earnings were very good. DDs chambers are £50,000: that’s pretty good for family I think but does reflect their work.

Yes OhDear111. I was just illustrating the significant difference between a decent regional set and DC’s London set. Very different work at the regional set - mostly family and crime but again, a huge gulf between that and your DD’s London family law set. It would be pretty tight to get by with rent and general living expenses in the area in question on £25k without savings or parental/ other support.

@Milmington That’s the issue with some regional law though. Expensive living but low fees. The bigger fees are definitely in London and the better work!

Reading with some interest here.

Dd couldn’t be described as nepo as I no longer practise (seriously) but I did wonder about the value of putting her in touch with people at firms to get insight into current processes for TC, learning more about firms etc

Had some concern that if she did manage to get VS place where I had made an introduction she might be viewed unfavourably by some.

In the end, she spoke with a couple of SS partners to find out a bit about their practice area and interview tips but never applied to those firms as they weren’t on her list of 5.

She got an offer from one SS firm, waiting to hear from another and I don’t know if she is just very lucky as she’s probably predicted a 2.1 from RG, good A levels but nothing super special/different from tons of others.

She has always been very driven and focused though and I know that she would have prepared for her assessment like a demon.

She told me afterwards about her visualisations before the assessment and walking away from a group of candidates on the day, when some expressed being very nervous, trying to stay positive.

Although top grades etc are necessary I think that showing character, commitment and determination are vital for getting a sniff at a TC or otherwise qualifying these days.

@Maggiethecat The criteria for getting any graduate job need to be researched carefully and talking to family friends or former colleagues is a perfectly valid form of research. Some people are so angsty and competitive about communicating the idea that their extraordinarily brilliant children have performed entirely on their own merit without any parental support that they end up in almost clownesque willful denial of opportunities that they have afforded them.

The trouble with that denial is that it can give families less in the know the wrong idea about the path to achieving a graduate role and that somehow their children need to be thrown in at the deep end and whether they sink or swim is entirely up to them. I believe very strongly that it is deeply immoral to propagate that idea!

@Ceramiq - I think that most parents will support their children as much as they are able to, given what they know and resources available.

Some Dc need more help than others but undoubtedly the ones who are very self driven are more likely to succeed at getting graduate jobs.

I don’t know how much Dd gained from the introductions she had and I’m not trying to minimise their value. They may have helped her to be more relaxed at assessment having had some previous friendly chat with partners and making partners seem more approachable. They also may have offered valuable advice.

I do know that the same determination that Dd has for getting top grades is the same determination she would have applied to getting her VS offer. Researching the firm, researching the application/assessment process, talking with the person in her class, who wasn’t successful with the firm that offered her, about his feedback and using that information at her later assessment. The same, similarly determined, person who after about the 5th assessment worked out what was required and who now has 2 MC VS offers.

The Dc do need our support which will be variable but in the current super competitive climate they really need to be very proactive and determined if they are to obtain and maintain graduate jobs.

@Maggiethecat Parental support of young adults as a principle is honestly pretty varied IMO!

What is SS Maggiethecat?

Silver Circle?

Ceramiq has it occurred to you that the parents who seek out your assistance are likely to be possessed of DC who are of middling ability? DC who manage to get to the top unis and achieve top grades are significantly less likely to be in need of 'ins'. I think your clientele affects your perception. There can be nothing immoral whatsoever in not trying to use advantage to help your own DC but to have faith in their own ability.

Not sure why I typed SS twice, instead of SC! 🙄

Yes, silver circle.

No parents seek my assistance Milmington. I spend a lot of time with people of exceptional ability and ambition, not children such as yours who went to their local state school and whose end goal is a job in London.

But on the medical threads you told us that parents and schools use your spreadsheets (as I said, I can't recall the purpose of these laboriously compiled spreadsheets, but you assured us that you'd invested an enormous amount of time on them).

Your comment on my DC are not worthy of dignifying, although I accept that it must be very irritating for you to learn that DC who go to their local school end up at the same unis and then in the same massively competitive careers as the 'people of exceptional ability and ambition' that you seem to believe you help. I mean, what's not to like about not paying fees and not living a vicarious life for parents bristling with ambition? My exact point is that all your exertions aren't required for those who have genuine ability and if DC don't have genuine ability, perhaps those surrounding them shouldn't push it - not a formula for happiness.

Incidentally, for your record, several of my DC have to deal internationally a great deal of the time, which involves travel/ secondment for work across Europe, to the Americas and Middle and Far East but please don't let that deter you from your attempts at insult.

Taking planes to meetings? We live in a global world, international commercial travel lost its lustre as a status symbol some time ago though perhaps when you live in the back of beyond Heathrow sounds glamorous.

Your interpretation of how I use proprietary data analysis is limited and incorrect.

OP, things have gone a bit off track here.

No doubt, your Dd will have to work her socks off to qualify as a solicitor especially if she does get a 2:2.

I would seriously suggest her trying to get some paralegal experience if possible. Wherever she can get it. If the firm/business/organisation offers a TC through that route she can try to impress with her work. If not, the experience may help her to secure a PL role with a firm/organisation for which that is a route to a TC.

Support her however you can but the due diligence will be led by her. These days there is so much info online and SM, chat rooms etc, to work out a strategic plan.

If she really wants this law career she should go for it - with a healthy dose of the reality and with focused hard work.

Good luck to her!

@Maggiethecat Unfortunately, in the real world of law, even getting a paralegal job with a 2:2 will be impossible. It’s going to need the conversion at £10,000 plus to even apply. So the investment is unlikely to be a good one. The world and his wife applying will have a 2:1 or better and I’d be amazed if anyone looks at a young candidate with a 2:2. Honesty is the best policy here.

In the real world and although very uncommon I know of paralegals with 2:2s.

Although smaller/non London firms have become highly competitive in their requirements because of the numbers game there can be openings if your CV contains value outside of just academics.

I wasn’t suggesting that the OP’s Dd do the conversion - quite the opposite.

What on earth is this about? I'm not giving any details about the specifics of my DCs' careers but it's the case that some things absolutely have to be done in person. If you're seconded internationally or a lawyer representing a client internationally then you do need to actually physically show up; the same if you're presenting research at an international conference.

I'm not at all sure that it's me who's out of touch here Ceramiq.