Post grad law conversions - reality of the usefulness of this?

[BobtheFrog]

One of my DDs is looking to a post grad degree, law conversion in particular - looking for some mumsnet wisdom about this route. Good idea? Concerns / questions we should consider? Does it lead to meaningful work? What kind of work is down this route?

Ex-recruitment partner here, been in law for 25 years.

The 2:2 is going to be a problem. There are too many people going into law relative to the number of training places available and it’s a convenient cut-off that I expect most of us involved in NQ recruitment have used.

Also, AI is having a seismic impact on the number of training contracts being offered, although to my knowledge the firms aren’t admitting this publicly (yet). I have strongly advised DS against a law career for this reason.

Certainly can see a lot of lawyers being replaced by AI - no idea why you would pursue a career in conveyancing, for example.

Sorry if unclear from my follow up post, but regardless of the LPC situation, we will not take candidates who do not have a law degree or a law conversion course. The SQE allows for candidates with neither but I do not think the course is sufficiently rigorous because it does not involve reading case law - which is a vital skill in my field. I actually have two SQE trainees at the moment but both have law degrees and are only doing the SQE because it is cheaper than the LPC.

Tbf there are loads of good reasons not to do conveyancing that don’t involve AI. I suspect the entire junior end of legal practice is vulnerable rather than specific practice areas - all the physical data rooms and disclosure bundles we used to wade through when cutting our teeth are already relics. Document review and research going the same way. (I’ve just paid thousands for an opinion letter than was 70% identical to what Co-Pilot coughed out, ie not even bespoke legal AI. Good firm too.)

Complex legal strategy is probably safe, but how you get there if AI can do the first 5 to 10 years of your job for free is anybody’s guess…

Sorry, I don’t think she’d be a competitive candidate in the current climate.

I agree. DH's office has gone from 8 trainees to 3.

Our 30 and 28 year old DCs are not lawyers but have many lawyer friends. They both work in finance. Their generation of highly educated professional service workers are incredibly busy learning to use AI (including industry specific AI) to automatize the roles that they were doing in their early to mid 20s. Our 28 year old DC has gone from having 2 trainees to several AI agents.

Mayer Brown (top international firm) is taking 15 trainees in this cohort (to start in 2028). They have had over 3000 applications so far and their direct application process is still open. It's absolutely crazy. AI is meaning that potential trainees can submit far more applications than ever before (although unless these are tailored they stand very little chance of success) at the same time as massively reducing the need for trainees.

It's a perfect storm in the legal world. Those at the bottom of the pile (sorry) in terms of grades/learning type/natural critical analysis skills/flexibility re location/ways to demonstrate extra curricular strengths, just don't stand a chance.

I did a piece of work last night which used to take me about 4 hours. It took me an hour. I cannot charge it as four hours of work so my bill for that work goes from c£1800 to £450. I'm then potentially free to do other work with those three hours but I don't suddenly have another three hours of work to fill that gap. The work has actually decreased rather than increased since AI means some clients will have a stab at doing something themselves rather than involving lawyers. The need for workers has therefore reduced. Law firms will increase their hourly rates to deal with this situation (and to reflect the cost of using legal specific AI software) and will also reduce their overheads by cutting people and reducing recruitment.

really helpful, thanks folks

• for context, she was on track for A*AB at A Level and a 1st at Uni but (transient) health issues and uni screw ups have pushed results down. She may yet get a 2.1, but is looking at something post grad to move past this.

Having worked in law firms (inc Magic Circle / global) myself, I am very wary of Law as a career path today, but don't want my biases to constrain the conversation

With experience in the profession you'll know that unfortunately a law conversion won't help her move past this (if she wants to work in law). Law firms will require GCSE and A level grades and will want a full transcript and module breakdown showing all marks. This all has to be provided at application stage (two and a half years before the role starts).

If she wants to study for the love of it then that's obviously different (although expensive). If she isn't wanting to be a lawyer though there would be more interesting post grad law courses she could study which focus on particular areas of interest rather than having to cover the compulsory (and frankly rather boring in parts - constitutional, trusts and land law in particular) topics.

We get plenty of paralegal candidates who have done a masters to try and make up for low to mid first degrees and honestly in most cases they are wasting a year of their life and £££ in fees.

If she’s got any possibility to get a 2.1 I’d throw everything at that and park the what next/job applications. It will massively improve her post graduate chances.
If she’s got health issues I’d really question if law for her as it’s usually long hours.

agree LLM is not helpful or a suitable remedy for a poor undergrad degree

@BobtheFrog I appreciate this is left field but has your DD thought about social work? My DC1 has just started a paid for training programme. They worked as a para social worker after graduating for 15 months and then managed to get on the Step Up programme (runs every two years). While not paid in the same league as top lawyers there is good career progression and lots of different opportunities - and quite a bit of law. DC1 has excellent grades but they were not required. I appreciate lots of challenges in social work but also in the law. DC1 wanted to be a lawyer then decided in 3rd year they wanted to be more more people facing. They will be on £35-37K on finishing the course as a newly qualified.

I’d also agree that a masters usually doesn’t add anything it usually smacks of couldn’t or wouldn’t get a job I think ‘panic masters’ is the phrase.
Working in anything customer facing and volunteering eg CAB is usually a much better idea than a masters.

Usualy A level grades matter and the marks on each module of your first degree as that goes on law firm application forms. I am a solicitor with 4 solicitor children (youngest 2 qualified in 2024).

However there are plenty of ways to skin a cat. Whilst the poster's daughter is unlikely to get a sponsored 2 years law post grad, she has to get some kind of job so might as well try law. She could use a post grad masters loan to do the 16 month course with BPP (or ULaw) - first year is PGDL law conversion (although not technically now needed it will almost always be preferred by law firms and it may be hard to pass SQE1/2 wihout it), with masters and SQE1 course. The SQE1 course is term 4 as it were - so one academic year doing PGDL and then next academic year SQE1 course - it is an LLM. It has to be a masters if you want to the student loan. I paid my sons' fees so they just did the straight PGDL one year and then next year moved on to the next course for which I paid too. If you need a masters loan for the fees then do the combined course. Whether you do that or not you can then do the SQE2 course straight after too once you pass SQE1.
She should get as much legal working experience during her non law degree as possible in holidays, join the university law soc etc etc. as some non law under graduates almost treat getting a TC as a second job whilst during their non law degree with spreadsheets of firms' dates for application - firms recruit years ahead as they will be funding for those without an LLB the 2 years post grad.
Then she wll not have to have a formal TC (although it is much better to do so). There are SRA videos about qualifying work experience you can watch. The essence is that if she passes SQE1 and 2 then she will need 2 years of qualifying work experience - not all paralegal jobs are that; some do not qualify so check that carefully. Then once she has 2 years of QWE the firm or firms or even a voluntary organisation needs a solicitor to sign that off and then she is qualified. Getting a job after that would then be her next task.

All the concerns about AI aside, what are the chances for my ds, currently in year 1 of a Politics degree at Uni of Nottingham - he’s a bit of a late developer academically, very ambitious and determined when he gets behind something, but until last year that something was weightlifting! So his GCSEs are average, he has BBC at A Level (in less stellar subjects), but he’s now hit his stride and is averaging a first comfortably across all his modules. He’s got a lot of drive and is determined to get work experience/internships etc but he’s not quite sure what to go for - law is one possibility. Will his A Levels hold him back or is that more the case for the big firms?

https://www.chambersstudent.co.uk/law-firms/getting-a-training-contract/application-and-selection-criteria

Some firms specify A levels some don’t.
When applying for vacation schemes he’ll need to check criteria carefully and again when applying for training contracts. Don’t waste time on those he’s ineligible for.
As only yr1 he’s got plenty of time to get work experience and other extra curricular to enhance his cv.

That’s really helpful, thanks @springisnearlyspring

The harsh reality is that there are very few firms where he would be in with a chance with BBC. Many firms wouldn't even allow him to complete the application.

Even with a first from an RG uni? Fair enough if that’s the answer. What about high street firms? Our local one seems to take trainees from unis like Coventry and DeMontfort. I’m assuming they probably don’t have As?

2.2 is a problem. Pursue something else.

High street firms pay terrible
i would (& did!) pursue an alternative better paid career.

I’m sorry but the kids with top grades can’t get the reduced number of training contracts that exist so they have to apply for the smaller firms too. They literally do dozens and dozens of applications. It’s like a full time job. The numbers are crazy - around 1 in 350 chance.