Son not allowed to continue to second year at uni

[PocketSand]

DS2 has just completed his first year in an engineering degree. His results are all over the place from 1st in maths to 2:2 to required resits. He exceeded the A level grade requirements for MEng. He is autistic and has ADHD. He was un medicated prior to and during most of his first year due to shortages followed by referral to cardiology.

His DSA support didn't start til the spring term and one support worker provided 1 hour support when 30 hours was approved. He constantly tells the one he has seen that everything is fine and they believe him.

He always says everything is fine and doesn't ask for help. He has never been to the library and relies totally on lecture notes. He doesn't know what independent study is. I have always been his advocate but now he is expected to advocate for himself. No one at the uni knows these issues - he has not even contacted his personal tutor let alone disability services and just thinks he needs to work harder.

He found out today that he has failed his third submission of a lab report he initially submitted in February. He did not have DSA agreed support at that time so he didn’t have his own laptop. He borrowed another student’s at the time but when he had to resubmit no longer had access to his results and so he tried to cobble together a report using specimen (and maybe someone else’s results - not clear). He had previously received an email saying he couldn’t proceed unless he passed resubmission. I assume that’s where we are at now.

His feedback is harsh - shouldn’t study for a degree if not prepared to use feedback to improve his work. Trouble is he often doesn’t understand the feedback and he is unwilling to ask for clarification as he fears tutor’s anger. He says he doesn’t know who marked the work so doesn’t know who to talk to and seems generally clueless about most administrative issues.

I feel completely in the dark and don’t know where to go from here. Obviously I don’t want to just give up and accept his journey ends here as it seems very unfair but don’t know what I can do to try and enable him to fix this or if it can be fixed.

Can anyone who knows the system provide advice on next steps please?

That is not quite correct.

All the 'DELIVERED' sessions i.e. teaching, has to be delivered during normal working hrs (apprentices on a full time contract get 6 hrs per week 'off the job training'). Learners are still expected to undertake independent study in thier own time. For us (degree level apprenticeship provider), we set the expectation that is 4hrs a week during the first year, 8 hrs a week during the second year and 12 hrs a week during the third year - more if they want a first class degree.

And ND support by employers can be very patchy - I've just had a learner I support dismissed who failed to declare ADHD during thier application/interview.

It seems he has spent the year trying to shove a square peg (himself) into a round hole (first year engineering), from the point of saying he didn't need a laptop all the way through non engagement with his tutor and never going to the library.

Could he be persuaded to opt for a degree in mathematics or applied mathematics instead of engineering? Could he be persuaded to use a laptop?

Is he aware of the extent to which he has shot himself in the foot, or are you the only one who sees the big picture here? Would it be possible to do a post mortem with him and see if he could identify areas where he should have done things differently?

@Wooky073 : "The university has done the right thing in asking him to withdraw. Ethically if the course is not right for him he will be running up a huge student debt to continue on something that will not benefit him as he will be unable to pass it."
This is a point that can be really easily missed by someone who went to uni decades ago.
Unversities are money making businesses, and any imperative to exaggerate the exclusivity of university graduades has completely disappeared.

I worry @PocketSand that on making contact with student services you will feel that they are the ones who have your son's best interests at heart because they will be focussed on getting your son enrolled in second year engineering. But their interest is in the bottom line. They want your son's second year fees.
If his engineering department has said "no" to continuing on to second year, and "no" to repeating first year, it may be motivated by a real interest in your son, his wellbeing, and his long term prospects. Lots of people on this thread had children who struggled through first year engineering, were assisted to move mountains to ensure they got through to second year, and ended up with no engineering career and alot of debt (good outcome for the university, that debt consists of fees that the uni earned - but not a good human outcome for the students involved).

Student services wouldn't be able to override the Universities decision
They can’t pull any strings

They can direct OPs son to Uni policies and procedures regarding an appeal.

The financial considerations should be a real factor in decision making. The student loans company only will give a max of 4 years funding for undergraduate study. So he has already used up one of those years. If he repeats the year it will be at full cost and also using up a second year of SLC funding. He will not be able to progress to the next level of study (year 2 of the course) without passing the first year. So imagine if he repeats the first year (at full cost) then scrapes through. He struggles at year 2 and has to repeat that year also. He will run out of SLC funding before completing the course. Which means he would have to self fund any remaining years study. If that isnt affordable then he would not complete the course yet would be saddled with a huge debt. Have a look at Martin Lewis about how SLC works. It isnt a traditional loan there are certain rules that go with it re paying it off. But APR is added. So say he used up all 4 years of funding but didnt complete the degree and then spent 20 years paying it off with APR added on it could easily reach £50-60k of debt. However you only pay it back if you earn over x amount and the debt is wiped off after x years (I cant remember the details but Martin Lewis covers it well). There is no point in simply increasing debt burden on him to try out things at uni if it isnt right for him.

So by all means he could appeal and fight the decision, he could seek support from students union or uni support services and you could support him to do so - but know what you are fighting for. He needs to be very sure that continuing with this course is what he really wants to do and is motivated to do it - so far he does not seem motivated and it seems he doesn't really want to do the course or be there. I would revisit the decision making process on educational choices. Start with what does he want to do as a career and then look at how to get there. For some young people they need a few years to mature before going to uni. The good thing about uni is that it is not age restricted - you can go in your late 20's or any age. However you cannot be funded any more once you have used up your 4 years of funding. So maybe coming out of uni and getting a job for a while or doing an apprenticeship would suit him better whilst he matures and figures out what he wants to do. Because surely the purpose of uni was to train and gain qualifications for a career. If not, it is a very expensive way to figure out what you like and don't like.

I sometimes wish I had gone to uni sooner as my qualifications would have had a better impact on career and life chances. But had I gone to uni age 18/19 I would probably have failed because at that age I was just not interested in education and didn't know what I wanted to do. Its about getting the balance right but you also need to consider fees, funding and debt. Martin Lewis says to consider the student debt repayments as a career qualification tax - and if it gains you a great qualification and career its probably worth it. But how damaging would it be to his life to be saddled with huge debt without a qualification or career to go with it. He needs to really appreciate the consequences of the funding used up already and understand that this is his current debt regardless of the fact he has not passed and what it will be at year 2,3,4 etc. You have a lot to work out with him and he will probably need your support to digest it and consider his options. Best of luck I hope it works out well for him regardless.

@DontWheeshtMe I guess I'm thinking that the appeals process may allow OP's son to continue with his degree if the department have failed to dot their i's and cross their t's, ie due process wasn't followed.
Going ahead with an appeal is not the wrong thing to do, but
I just want to flag that it might be good to listen to his tutors and lecturers and not dismiss them as uninterested in OP's son's wellbeing because they are recommending he does not continue with the engineering degree.
It's also possible that the process has been unfair - and unjust, in relation to lack of reasonable adjustments - and OP's son goes on to thrive in his engineering career. I can't possibly know. But there's been such a change with the culture of universities - they used to be, decades ago, trigger happy with ejecting students (IMO), whereas now the incentives are always to keep students in, paying their fees, even where teaching staff know that a student won't thrive in the field long term.

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My daughter passed uni, with additional needs, no problem. But it was her choise to go and i had stepped back during her last year at high school so she learned to advocate for herself, during college and university.

I entirely agree with your comment about ableism. I was shocked by some of the comments on this thread. I thought as a society we were moving beyond this but clearly even in this site we aren’t moving fast enough

There's a lot of misinformation about apprenticeships , they are not an easy option . If the OP's son finds a company near to home that has an apprenticeship scheme, he will likely go to the university he is at now .He will be expected to work and study and keep his otj hours up and attend additional work related courses. Colleagues can offer support but they have to work too , they don't get massively involved in the uni side of things.

Had an issue with DS1 not accessing the support he needed at Uni for a while. We contacted personal tutor and head of department, told them of the issue and asked them to reach out to DS1. They did, and this prompted personal tutor to check in with DS1 regularly. DS1 did then start utilising study supporter. Hope you can do that.

You’ve had lots of good advice from others, but I wanted to add: is there any way you can get him to talk to an engineer about their job and/or some work experience over the summer?

From my family members’ experience “independent projects to meet a need” and writing reports (not ‘lab’ reports but reports of what you have calculated/desgined, etc.) is what engineers do 90% of their day. The other 10% is meetings with teams, bosses or clients explaining/justifying/negotiating, which doesn’t sound like he would find manageable either, without a lot of support. Have you had a conversation with him about why he chose engineering? What does he think it will look like day-to-day?

I think you and your son need to decide whether university is the right option to pursue. He will need to be able to communicate effectively and negotiate with any employer and work colleagues in an engineering employment setting. He won't get personalised support. If he is unable to manage now at university, whilst still living at home, how will he manage in a work environment? Maybe he needs to rethink his career path. Perhaps a year out may help?

"His feedback is harsh - shouldn’t study for a degree if not prepared to use feedback to improve his work. Trouble is he often doesn’t understand the feedback and he is unwilling to ask for clarification as he fears tutor’s anger. and seems generally clueless about most administrative issues."

You say it's "Unfair" but I really don't see how it's unfair when it is entirely his own fault?

If he wants you to appeal then appeal, it sounds like the support he has been provided with is inadequate, but your comment about him being fearful of a tutors anger is what struck me. That's not acceptable behaviour at all, so do include that in your appeal, but ultimately it sounds like this uni is not for him.

Also not having his info sounds like he's disorganised so that needs addressing irrespective of whether he continues to read a degree or not.

He sounds bright enough to study for a degree, but honestly is it right for him to go to uni?

I personally dont know what the big issue about everyone going to uni is. I went when hardly anyone from a working/middle class home did and I would not repeat it today. Instead I'd find a degree apprenticeship. He can do that in engineering.

Whichever way he wants to take it, now its not the end of the world. Degrees today are pretty much 2 a penny. I say that as a recruiter.

If you think he needs this much support to get through uni how on earth will he cope in the workforce you wont be able to be involved then?

He needs to do this himself

Spot on

He seems clever but he is not cut out for University. It's not for everyone especially with his issues.
I am often amazed that people feel they need to go to university to get a degree. There are alternatives.
He could get a degree at the Open University. He won't get massive debt and will be able to control his life better.
He will, however, need to read his books. There is no degree without that.

I haven't read the latest posts yet but wanted to update. DS2's lecturer has now emailed him that it is 'time to talk about the lab report' so he is waiting for him to contact him. I have said that at any meeting he will have to request my presence to support him. He was not at all keen and said it 'wasn't a good look' but I have made it clear it's a condition of continuing with his engineering degree. I spoke to him about alternatives and the said he 'hates' maths and is not good at computer science (despite writing a games programme whilst we spoke) and wants to continue with engineering. I am going through the advice provided by previous posters with direct experience of DC with a similar profile who have struggled with MEng in particular to compile a list of what has worked or not to produce a list of what DS2 will need to agree to doing differently going forward to remain with engineering. DS2 has agreed to this.

@PocketSand Well done!
Without seeing exactly what's been said by lecturer, my instinct is Ds should send a polite email thanking them/agreeing and or inquiring about what might suit the lecturer availability wise, rather than silently waiting for contact, which might come to late to stop some things happening.
Showing engagement right now, might make quite a difference.
.
I get why he feels an advocate especially you, is not a good look, but he might want to balance it with a lecturer who knows he now has back up and overview, might not love it, but think it makes him more likely to get past the issues that have mired him.
Additionally, it might make the difference, between the lecturer helping get him over the line, or encouraging him out, if he's definite he wants to push through.

Both @Wooky073and @Kurkara make very sensible points about the realities of universities and how they really are as businesses. Really important to understand. (TBH if they hadn't become like this, Ds might have got in, but I wouldn't have.)

Working out a future for a YA with ASD and ADHD who's already had difficulties fitting into standard education and situations, and is bright, is hugely difficult.

It's very easy to see x years BA, with a year in industry, followed by y doing a masters and then be accepted to work at z ,as the solution while they mature.
IME universities often encourage it. (not necessarily their lecturers but some tow the line)
When you have a young academically able person, who isn't uniformly able, or at the right maturity progression age wise, and whose future is fragile, it does seem like all the answers to huge challenges in life in one package.
With enough support it can be, but it rarely goes to plan, and you have the pull of 'only good option for them' from one side, and push of 'what's the point, if they have difficulties' from the other.

Many on this thread have absolutely no idea of what's needed to raise YA's with SEN's to an independent successful future, and think folk are either born able, or should be written of. (bet they don't want to pay to support them though!)

While it's an expensive error to find you've used a year of loans funding studying the 'wrong' degree, it isn't a wasted year unless you see education's only purpose as being an investment in order to work in a particular field.

It does get more complicated with two student debt accounts, but is deal able with.

No one here had ever been to university, we didn't personally know people who had. So 'getting it right' and the huge debt, was a big issue, and we fell for several myths university fed us. (families where all have been, have a different but related issue)
Ds then wanting to change course and uni, was very daunting.

Much of what he learnt in his 'wrong' course, he continues to use and apply, his interest in the subject is undamaged. The same for everything he took from his actual degree, though it is more relevant to his (Covid forced) career change.

Once BA became possible, we found huge pressure to continue direct to Masters, and implications he wouldn't do very well without it. Possibly true of his first degree choice, but not his second.

He's now got to a position where he'd need to save up, but funding a masters himself later in the subject he took his degree in, if he wants to undertake one, is possible.

He's also wiser about the importance of putting some years in before doing a Masters, and if actually it's that career progressing in itself, or more an opportunity to take time out to indulge in deep diving in education alongside others, and then possibly be able to use it's 'cachet.'

Has also understood the tempting discount his old uni offers if he took a masters there, doesn't make the quality of their offer better.

Most of all he's realized the only Masters that are worth it in his subject area, aren't in the UK. But no university in this country is ever going to tell him that.

At times, he does get support over work issues from home, as do many NT offspring. No he doesn't need 'mummy' to talk to his work, or negotiate his pay rises. He and others, recognize his worth, as well as difficulties.

I would advise him to take initiative to suggest a time to meet. Would it be face to face or online?

so @PocketSand he hasn’t officially failed the first year at all

If he had
The tutor wouldnt be contacting him to discuss the submission

This is a positive

This happened to my son also ADHD it’s so overwhelming for them. You need to speck to the university as they didn’t have in place his support. Can he not retake the one he failed over the summer.

As the parent of an 18yr old with Autism I understand your son's reaction but he absolutely needs to get with the programme. You are so right to tell him that your involvement is non-negotiable. Losing his place at Uni wouldn't be a 'good look' either and I cannot stress enough how these problems continue into the workplace so he needs to get comfortable with using support. Good luck with everything.

OP, I was talking to my DC who is currently in third year on an MEng. They were interested to know how your son coped working on group work/ projects with other students on their course. Because of our family background my DC is more practiced and skilled in communicating with someone with neuro diversity ( and one of their lecturers actually commented on this, in a very nice way and wasn’t surprised when DC mentioned sibling) DC asks this because they said even if someone doesn’t tell you they are ND/ SEN/ Need adjustments- it’s usually as clear as day to their peers. Young people have had much more experience of classmates who are ND than was maybe the case in the past.
Even with adjustments and extra help and lots of support ( from staff and other students) the students on my DC’s course have really struggled very badly in n group work situations- e.g not completing their part of the task which has a knock on effect to everybody else, completely misinterpreting the task, not responding to feedback from the rest of the group… they are under an immense workload pressure and they just don’t have the time to do someone else’s work as well as their own. In the first couple of years it isn’t such a big issue as this work tends to be submitted in the name of all the students but in the upper years of an MEng, each student’s individual’s contribution is marked.
I know that in the year above my DC a group of students had to meet with the course director because a ND student in their project group had done absolutely no work- they had of course “frozen” as a result of being overwhelmed by anxiety. While all the other students understood this, and after almost 4 years of supporting their peer they just could not risk their degree classification being affected. The group was reduced from 5 to 4 and they were given extra time without penalty to complete the project. It’s still put them under huge pressure and I know that other students in the year came to help them.
I know that your child is your concern, not anyone else’s child , but at the moment from what you are telling us they are completely out of their depth and it is only going to get worse.