Law at which? 2

[stubiff]

So, following on from https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/higher_education/5243884-law-at-which.

Going back a few months DS thought predictions would be AAA, hence talking about York, Exeter, etc.

We've just had parents evening and predictions are AStar, A, A, so that could bring others into it. You may say that's a good thing (I think it is for having a higher chance of getting an offer from the AAAs) but I'm not so sure it's good to now look at the AStar, A, A places.

So, not interested in London. Has said we would do the LNAT but knows nothing about it, yet.

That brings in Durham (LNAT), Bristol (LNAT), Warwick and Manchester, all at AStar, A, A. Leeds was that for 2025, but for 2026 it is now AAA (so it's in that pot now).

Looking at rough acceptance rates and what is used in the offer criteria (e.g. 40% LNAT, 40% A-levels, 20% GCSEs, and GCSE profile of majority 7+ (he doesn't have)), then I think DS would have <10% chance of an offer. If successful and went, then he would probably be at the lower end (ability-wise).

Therefore, is it actually worth looking at these places?

Would you mind posting info again or a photo with your details removed @stubiff as I am very interested but mumsnet bolding formatting messes up A and A star.

@Cakeandusername Yes, sorry, it's as per my previous post but...

3 AStar 36.1%
2 AStar 29.8%
1 AStar 20.5%
AAA 12.5%

Note, the latter two, for '23 and '22 are a lot lower, but assume that is down to TAG/CAGs or whatever it was at the time creating a lot more students at 2/3 AStar, and poss fewer International students in '24 meaning more offers to Home students? Assuming that will continue in '25 and '26?
Caveat on the GCSE one - it excludes iGCSE so isn't really the full picture.

@TizerorFizz I don't think it's odd that there isn't a continuous increase from 0-10+, as there are more 'points', therefore lower numbers, there will be more variability/less correlation at GCSE compared to A-level, GCSE will make up less of the formula/criteria for selection, and also the above caveat.

My DS, for example, is '1' in the GCSE list but AStar,A,A in the A-level list.

Many thanks @stubiff

Have asked Durham about the GCSE numbers, to clarify, and to ask about excluding applicants who have 1+ iGCSEs.

For comparison, Bristol:
3 AStar 69.3%
2 AStar 41.2%
1 AStar 19.6% (so similar to Durham's here)
AAA 0%
AAB <5 out of 25

Note, Bristol's weighting is GCSE 20%, A-Level 40%, LNAT 40%.

The one we want back is Warwick (not replied yet), as current thinking is just to do that one as an aspirational and not bother with the LNAT.

But those Bristl numbers add up to about 140. How can that be….ir am I misunderstanding?

@WombatChocolate My question earlier. Scroll back.

@WombatChocolate
It’s the offer rate for each grade, I.e. number of offers / number of applicants, for those with that predicted grade profile.
So someone with predicted AStar, A, A would have a 19.6% chance of getting an offer, with other criteria being equal.

For completeness, of those who got (2024) Bristol offers, how that is split across the predicted grade profiles:
3 AStar 60.2%
2 AStar, A 24.3%
1 AStar 13.9%
2 AStar, B <1%
AAA 0%
AAB < 1%

Of the ones that might be chosen - Warwick (or indeed Bristol where 3 of my solicitor children went) then York and then Loughborough.
For me it is just as much about who you might meet there, what is the peer group, where will they go, who will be your friends for life. I just have a gut feeling that York (despite its being too close to home for the potential student) will be miles better than Loughborough in a lot of ways in terms of university experience.

Good luck. On apprenticeships mentioned above despite bigger London firms' publicity about them there are hjardly any - they are so few that I would regard them as de minimis and not really worth considering other than as an additional after thought.

Once the law studies do start emember a lot of work goes into careers during the 3 year LLB, first year schemes, voluntgary work, applications for vacation schemes (those schemes are paid) and then training contracts. All the dates are on the firm websites and it is not something yhou consider in your graduation year or after you graduate. It is a huge process a bit like a second job done alongside your LLB really in an ideal world with the aim of getting a training contract before the LLB ends and before you do your post grade SQE studies year.

Despite having said that one of mine got a TC offer during the law conversion year (didn't do law first at university) and someone we know got a TC during the SQE year. You can get a masters loan to cover the SQE1 and 2 course fees (not exam fees). For people who don't do an LLB first it is a bit more complicated than that but not relevant here.

@Xenia
So, Warwick, yes, will be going to the open day with a view to it being the aspirational choice.
Bristol, no, if above true, as needs LNAT (same for Durham).
York, no, currently, as mentioned due to proximity. We haven't really talked about finances so may work on living-at-home.
Loughborough, no, due to the risks of the course being new, etc.

Edit - current probables - Warwick, Exeter, Sheffield, Lancaster (again going to open day to confirm as an insurance possible) and one other.

Re apprenticeships - was going to reply the last time you mentioned it. Not sure you can say they should be an after-thought because there aren't many of them (We've got a list of about 20 in our area (not London), which could be investigated/pursued, and it's not all Top 100 firms).
If DC have more of an urge to get into the workplace/not go to traditional uni then I think it's worth looking at, and for me the biggest pull is that you're 'in'.
Two examples - loads of graduates taking paralegal roles and then taking an age to get TC/qualification (as Tizer says - too much supply). DS has done work experience at a firm and there are loads of the above in the team, but one Sol App, who will probably overtake loads of them as it's all mapped out (assuming passing exams, etc, which the others have to do as well).

For those interested in next year, here are some clearing grades today. Not many Unis in the scheme of things, at the top-ish end.
Std offer in brackets.

Sheffield (AAA) - AAB.
Cardiff (AAA) - no grade mentioned.
Southampton (AAA) - BBB.
Lancaster (AAB) - BBB.
Leicester (AAB) - BBB.

Then some at lower.

So, I don't think a tactic (for Law anyway) would be to just apply through clearing, unless you're predicted AAB or below.

@stubiff I think those revised grades indicate how good students perceive them for law careers. Manchester isn’t on your list but nearby Lancaster is. Does that reflect Manchester is where employers are? It’s a much more thriving uni for law than Lancaster. Cardiff presumably is the best for law for Welsh students not wanting to leave Wales and job opportunities are there. Leicester is ok and Southampton but I think this list tells you what the second division looks like.

@TizerorFizz
Wouldn't say Lancaster is nearby Manchester, but get your point, and obv there are more employers in the bigger towns/cities. Generally you would expect fewer/no clearing places at Manchester, or any other A*, due to that point.

Leicester is roughly the same distance from Birmingham but you said, before, that wasn't remote employer-wise.

Yes, kind of obv they are second division (for various reasons), but there is no evidence that you have less of a chance (job-wise) by attending them.

Newcastle aren't in clearing, but maybe there are significantly more locals there.

If DC had BBB predicted and then got in to Lancaster (or similar) via clearing, I think they'd be pretty pleased.

Southampton is full now, so either they only wanted a few and/or everyone saw it as a good deal!

@stubiffYou have to split them down into geographical areas and then see who the big players are. Manchester in the NW. Birmingham in the midlands. Then decide whether the other universities are as good in terms of grad employment. They might well be but dc need to do far more than the degree. So it’s juggling what dc want more and where their interests lie.

I went to Mancheser and Leicester was my back up (my school seriously under predicted my A levels as most girls did not go to university so Durham and Bristol rejected me and then I got the best A levels in the schooll but it all worked out fine as things usually do.

@Xenia And do you think you would have been held back or not got the job(s) you got, if you had studied at Leicester instead?

@stubiff I think you will find @Xenia applied for very many jobs without success. University isn’t the sole determining factor either. It’s the dc as an employable package. The research, such as if is, just tells you where the most often successful packages come from!

You have to remember how much things have changed. U of Leicester was ranked 10 or 11 when I went to university for law and I’m a decade or so younger than Xenia. Far fewer universities offered law and it was era of university and polytechnics still.

@stubiff to add to your clearing list Queens Belfast was AAB for GB students. It’s RG, top 10 ranked for law and a qualifying law degree for England & Wales.
If a top grade student is thinking of applying for Lancaster or Leicester as a safe back up choice in their initial 5 for 2026 it may be better picking another more competitive choice in knowledge they’ll very likely be able to pick up Lancaster or Leicester in clearing if they miss grades. They can easily get accommodation at those universities so no worries about clearing and accommodation.

It is hard to say what would have happened had I gone to Leciester instead. It might have been harder to get into a London firm. I probably could have got into a Newcastle firm (I am from Newcastle) and that was always a possibly and given how much I love Northumberland and the countryside that would have been a lovely too.

Manchester was very good. I was taught by Hale (she became our most senior british judge on the Supreme Court) and Harry Street (of the book Street on Torts). I cannot now remember what Leicester was like in those days. May be as with my school, had I not gone to a university perhaps a bit easier than some others like Durham and Bristol where I wanted to go or Oxbridge where my siblings went) I would not have felt the best. I was top of year 1 at Manchester, had an entrance scholarship ( I sat 3 x 3 hours of exams during A level year to get that), then top of 2 subjects in year 3. It confirmed I was pretty good. May be that would not have happened elsewhere.

1982 when I graduated had the worst unemployment for 50 years and there were 3m out of work. I did receive a training contract offer in year 3 of my LLB but only after 139 applications and 25 interviews (I have the paperwork scanned). There is a lot of chance in life as well as hard work.

As someone said above a lot of things have changed since I went ot university ihn the 1980s and I do know that as I have had 5 chidlren graduate in the last few years (4 of whom are now solicitors) and we have a wider family member starting in September (medicine) so I am reasonably up to date.

Belfast isn’t a networking place though. Degree isn’t everything. Contacts and near to possible work is worth quite a lot. London quite difficult to access from Belfast.

My DH has lots of solicitor friends from his former university - Sheffield. Back in the 70s they all got training contracts and all worked happily for many years being solicitors or in house lawyers. I don’t think unemployment crossed their minds! That was because we had about the right number of grads for the vacancies. Now we have around 3:1 or worse and that’s just law grads! Never mind the 40-50% who are not law grads and convert. It’s very different now that vast numbers of “universities” have law schools and quality isn’t the same at all of them.

@TizerorFizz there were lots of networking options with large firms, many have a presence there plus prestigious speakers. London easier and cheaper to access than many places in uk - short flight often cheaper and more reliable than rail. They also pay £100 to any GB students visiting open day, plus £3000 bursary to all GB students yr 1. I thought their law offering was strong (my dc ultimately preferred a higher ranked and went there)

Not a university that has much presence in London though. Dc based in London it can work for. Unless dc want to stay in NI I think it has its limitations. The league tables don’t look at employment practicalities.

My DD isn’t doing Law but forget about the ‘lower end ability wise’. She’s at Durham and says people with far lower grades would be able to cope. Maybe not for something like Math which requires definitive knowledge.