Law at which? 2

[stubiff]

So, following on from https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/higher_education/5243884-law-at-which.

Going back a few months DS thought predictions would be AAA, hence talking about York, Exeter, etc.

We've just had parents evening and predictions are AStar, A, A, so that could bring others into it. You may say that's a good thing (I think it is for having a higher chance of getting an offer from the AAAs) but I'm not so sure it's good to now look at the AStar, A, A places.

So, not interested in London. Has said we would do the LNAT but knows nothing about it, yet.

That brings in Durham (LNAT), Bristol (LNAT), Warwick and Manchester, all at AStar, A, A. Leeds was that for 2025, but for 2026 it is now AAA (so it's in that pot now).

Looking at rough acceptance rates and what is used in the offer criteria (e.g. 40% LNAT, 40% A-levels, 20% GCSEs, and GCSE profile of majority 7+ (he doesn't have)), then I think DS would have <10% chance of an offer. If successful and went, then he would probably be at the lower end (ability-wise).

Therefore, is it actually worth looking at these places?

Not sure of your terminology of remote - assume you mean employment wise, not geographically?
Wasn't aware you knew all the employers in the Midlands!

If so, then Warwick (Uni) is remote as well, on the edge of Coventry, which according to ChambersStudent doesn't have a market (top firms).
I hope you realise that Loughborough is very close to Leicester (which you mention as ok), and smack between that, Nottingham and Derby. Former two have markets. If DC can't be bothered travelling 12 miles to look for work then there is something up!
Personally, think Loughborough is ideally placed, close to small to big markets of Leicester, Notts and Birmingham.
You'd also be ruling out Lancaster and Durham(!) - as no real markets either.

Durham is 7th on the Regional list (similar to Manchester and Leeds), so the closeness of really big markets is not stopping people.
Exeter is similar to Leicester (market size) but is 4th on that list.
As the report suggests most of it is probably a numbers (Uni cohort) thing - Exeter is 600 (Bristol 400 by comparison).

Short story - I certainly wouldn't be put off by where Loughborough is and the markets around it. If DC wants to move back home (ish) after Uni then it doesn't matter where they go, and if they stay around the Uni (ish) there are lots of options, as above.

Reputation - yes, we've mentioned. Possibly an issue. But, a number of firms do blind recruitment so it wouldn't matter there. And are they really going to say - oh, you've come from Loughborough so it can't be any good cos it's new. Maybe if it was a new course at number 100 in the general rankings.

@stubiff Strange comments! Obviously employment! You might not realise this but law grads often stay and work locally. If they can. Especially if they have done some work experience of helped at law clinics. There won’t be much going in Loughborough and students will have to travel. It’s new so it’s not established as a local provider and ALL those other unis already have the market on the area you mention. I think you are missing the point that the new kid on the block will have to compete with Birmingham, Nottingham and Warwick who also provide many high quality lawyers already.

Not every firm does blind recruitment by a long way! In fact some like Leigh Day do no TC recruitment at all. Durham grads often secure London jobs and their grads will have very high entry grades and be more sought after. Exeter probably the same. West country is just Bristol and Exeter. Loughborough has no track record at all. I am sure you know best though. As you did about York.

I do realise that law grads often stay - you and others have mentioned it numerous times. I'm just saying it's not the be-all-and-end-all of Uni selection.
Do you not think looking beyond Loughborough, in the local area (if that is what they want) is beyond them. There will be plenty who go to all those mentioned who get jobs in the other towns/cities.
Would you rule out Lancaster, then, for the same reasons? How do those grads manage?
Would Glasgow Common Law be out, as DC would need to come back to England to use it?
Would UEA be out as Norwich may not be a big enough market?
Yes, new kid would have to compete, just like the ones from Leicester would have to compete with Warwick grads.

Leigh Day comment - irrelevant. Doesn't matter if it's for a TC or paralegal role (which loads have to go for nowadays) - DC need to compete.
My friend's firm do TCs (only) from their paralegals (all degrees) - not sure why more firms don't do that actually.

If he really fancies Loughborough I’d go to open day but would want him to ask lots of questions.
There’s lots of vague references on their page eg for pro bono mentions work experience with relevant organisations but nothing specific. Meanwhile Leicester has a fully established decades old legal advice clinic in a dedicated suite like a law office.
It’s hard to break into a saturated market so eg Nottingham, Birmingham, Leicester will already have all the local firms tapped up to go in to talk to students, booked for networking events.
There’s the lack of alumni network too - people usually willing to assist their old uni if they are in a senior position. So judges, Law Society President etc go back to talk to their old universities.
A small course may also have a lack of resources whereas bigger unis will have dedicated legal careers opportunities staff.
Most recruitment isn’t blind in legal and there is often an element of x uni, oh that’s decent for law especially at smaller firms.

@stubiff Not sure you are listening really. Yes, firms choose from paralegals! You could be 28 before getting chosen! Not great earnings up to 30! It’s dog eat dog. You’ve got to get the paralegal gig in the first place! Leigh Day aren’t alone in doing this. Lots of paralegals and few chosen for TCs.

There’s so much hyperbole around law degrees from unis too. Gloucester used to advertise theirs by showing a young barrister. I don’t know the stats but I would bet a lot of money the vast vast majority of barristers didn’t get a law degree from Gloucester. The truth is they can make a swish advert for a course but actually delivering is another matter because much of it is outside their control. As @Cakeandusername
says, there are serious drawbacks to a small new course with no solid foundations. Law needs an alumni structure and connections .

Many jobs are with smaller firms too. They might well not be interested in uni blind because they trust certain courses. Law is risk averse. They are not going to know Loughborough law so Loughborough grads will be relying on the Loughborough brand provided by other courses. I’d weigh up everything.

Yes, everything will be weighed up, don't worry.
I think, to be honest, he'll be put off by the Social Justice slant (however small it may be), so it's prob all a moot point.

I was agreeing with you re paralegals.
That's why I'm going to be pushing him to go for the apprenticeships. Assuming he's in the right head space and is 90%+ for it.

Spoke to my Solicitor friend the other day and he said how competitive it is post degree.
And before you say(!), yes, even more competitive for the apprenticeship. I know.
But, IF you can wangle one (even at a smaller firm), then you're in. No worrying about whether you're going to get/not get a TC, whether there's even the graduate apprenticeships at that point, or whether you need to take a paralegal role for years, with no guarantee.

He's doing work experience at a place in a couple of weeks time and more or less all the department are paralegals with degrees in the last 1-4 years. Prob all of them with aspirations for qualifying.

@stubiff Aren’t apprenticeships for Solicitor qualifications ceasing? I think I read this from another poster.

@TizerorFizz Not currently for the younger ones.

But for paralegals with law degrees? Could make that route ?

Level 7 solicitor apprenticeships can continue for age 21 and under from 2026. So the 6 year degree and postgraduate sqe solicitor apprenticeships can be offered still.
Level 7 solicitor apprenticeships currently are the 6 year type including law degree and postgraduate sqe or the 3 year postgraduate sqe (for university graduates)
The stats show there were around 1300 level 7 solicitor apprenticeships 23/4 but not a breakdown between two types, my impression is most were the post university degree 3 year type which are abolished from 2026.
Only 140 school leavers secured the 6 year degree solicitor apprenticeship, they are like hens teeth at present.
Whether any more 6 year degree and postgraduate solicitor apprenticeships will be offered to 21 and under yp remains to be seen.

@stubiff Rhetoric on apprenticeships doesn’t match reality. As so often happens! 140: and I would bet mostly with big firms and they will have the “shall I go to Cambridge or take an apprenticeship” type applicant. I think there was a thread on this a while ago. Your DS is looking at AAA type courses and isn’t targeting elite LNAT universities. Not entirely sure how he will fare regarding an apprenticeship. Why not do a tried and tested route via a tried and tested university?

I think the Oxbridge types will probably still be going there.
They are not all big comps. Know of two local ones, in fact the firm he’s doing WE with had them.
But, yes, there will be top notch A-levelers just like there will be top notch graduates from top Unis, going for paralegals/TCs.
Either way you’re not going to get away from it.

The reasons - no debt, learn while you earn, get to the same point either at the same time or a lot earlier (average qualifying at 30 I think it is now). If you get one you’re def on the route to qualifying, all other things being equal. No doubts like the paralegal situations you talked about.

For me, if you’re the type of person who could hack it, it’s a no-brainer to at least go for it. Worse case you get experience of the whole apply process which will be very similar for Vac schemes/TC.

https://www.legalcheek.com/the-solicitor-apprenticeship-most-list/
Not full list but gives idea how few currently offered.
My colleague’s dc secured a solicitor apprenticeship (criminal) in her gap year with a large regional firm so it’s not impossible just extremely competitive. She was A/Astar grades in hand and lots of customer facing paid work. Juggling work and study was what they looked for - she was working 40 hours a week in a pretty demanding nhs client facing role and studying an additional qualification, her final interview was a presentation to a panel of 3 partners. Need to drive and be a car owner too. Mum is a solicitor but not at that firm.
I personally can’t see a huge increase in numbers. They may be offered mainly in low paid hard to recruit areas like criminal.
We offer the 3 year sqe apprenticeships, currently being reviewed in light of govt removing this option from 2026. Have never offered the 6 year solicitor apprenticeships aimed at school leavers.

@Cakeandusername
A lot of top firms, as per LegalCheek offer them, so not low paid. After the degree part you’re treated like you’re on the TC and paid the same, same for NQ.
Numbers are low as you say though.
But have seen them at smaller places in Leeds, York and Teesside, not Top 200 places.

It depends what ultimate goal is. The yp I’ve mentioned above will be qualified no debt but will be limited to lower paid criminal work with anti social hours for police station call out.
This was an advert I saw recently. Again hard to recruit adult social care and childcare lawyers. If you train in these areas will be qualified solicitor on low pay. Plus whether you are able to handle horrific images, watching police interviews as a teen.

Not knocking it we desperately need these type of lawyers but Solicitor encompasses a wide variety of job roles and salaries.

I mean lower paid once qualified. They don’t tend to be in commercial that attract the highest qualified salaries.
I trained legal aid inner city. My sibling trained magic circle. My grandma thought we did the same job, we were both called solicitors! You can imagine the earnings difference over our careers.
But money isn’t everything and we all choose what suits.

@Cakeandusername
There are some top firms in that list paying top NQ (after apprenticeship) for a region for example

Sorry I’m not explaining well I mean career as a whole. So eg criminal, local government solicitors etc will earn max £40-50,000 a year ft no matter how qualified.

Yes, ok.

Apprenticeship definitely has advantages and if it’s area want to work in then can make a lot of sense. The yp I mentioned above is loving it visiting prisons, in court with counsel etc. If it had been around 35 years ago I’d have tried for one as my ambition age 15 was to be a high street general practice solicitor.
Just trying to say it’s not as simple as you’ll qualify without debt as where you train and what area you train in does heavily influence your career as a whole.

For those interested in Warwick, I have put in an FOI request to ask for offer rates, etc, based on A-level and GCSE grade profiles.
Will post if anything comes back.

So, I also did an FOI request to Durham and Bristol, as well as Warwick, for Law.
Durham have replied, only ones so far.

For 2024, offer rate %, for Home, non-contextual, applicants based on predicted grades (best 3) -

AAA* - 36.1% 110 out of 305
AAA - 29.8% 70 out of 235
A*AA - 20.5% 45 out of 220
AAA - 12.5% 5 out of 40

And for GCSEs at 8 or 9, the offer rate %
0 11.8%
1 18.8%
2 26.3%
3 26.3%
4 26.3%
5 20.0%
6 23.5%
7 26.7%
8 28.6%
9 29.4%
10+ 40.9%

So, some hope for those with slightly lower predicted grades and/or not as stellar GCSE profile, as a speculative choice.

The last 3 GCSE categories add up to just about 99%. How do the percentages work? Also are the A levels just AAA or AAAstar? Is the bold A star X 2 A? What about 3x A star? I’m a bit confused.

Blimmin formatting!

In order, 3 x AStar, 2 x AStar, 1 AStar, AAA.

GCSE - not adding up the whole lot.
If you have 10+ GCSEs at 8 or 9, then there is a 40.9% offer rate, i.e. you have a 40.9% chance of getting an offer.
If you have 5 at 8/9 then you have roughly half that chance, i.e. 20%.
Obv there are the other criteria to take into account, A-levels and LNAT, but it gives a flavour.

The reason for asking was the thinking that if you have only one A Star (a-level), or 1 8/9 (GCSE), then you'd have < 5% chance of getting an offer. So why bother applying.

Ah! I thought it was % who actually got offers! So nearly 60% with 10 plus GCSEs at 8/9 don’t get offers? Thats high! LNAT must be the distinguishing factor here. Some universities take GCSEs into account more than Durham does perhaps? Also 2,3 or 4 8/9 grades gives a better chance than 5 at these grades? Slightly odd.