Law at which? 2

[stubiff]

So, following on from https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/higher_education/5243884-law-at-which.

Going back a few months DS thought predictions would be AAA, hence talking about York, Exeter, etc.

We've just had parents evening and predictions are AStar, A, A, so that could bring others into it. You may say that's a good thing (I think it is for having a higher chance of getting an offer from the AAAs) but I'm not so sure it's good to now look at the AStar, A, A places.

So, not interested in London. Has said we would do the LNAT but knows nothing about it, yet.

That brings in Durham (LNAT), Bristol (LNAT), Warwick and Manchester, all at AStar, A, A. Leeds was that for 2025, but for 2026 it is now AAA (so it's in that pot now).

Looking at rough acceptance rates and what is used in the offer criteria (e.g. 40% LNAT, 40% A-levels, 20% GCSEs, and GCSE profile of majority 7+ (he doesn't have)), then I think DS would have <10% chance of an offer. If successful and went, then he would probably be at the lower end (ability-wise).

Therefore, is it actually worth looking at these places?

@stubiff That needs to lead to a job though - what job? You will find the top lawyers in all those areas are either barristers or law makers - politicians. Some solicitors like Leigh Day too who recruit from within. CPS and Civil Service too. I’d say it looks interesting but a narrow focus. Universities never look at family law very well. My DD did a GDL and learned on her feet. Areas of family law very much deal with social justice but it’s not campaigning as the topics above suggest.

It's a law degree though!
Fair enough, there is a slant that way, but that's not saying you need to (or can only) get a job in that area.
The whole of the third year is options - so someone may do Company, Corporate, Sport, and Technologies. Just like you could do elsewhere.

@stubiff So why not mention the other areas? I do know - the ones you quote appeal to 18 year olds who have little idea about commercial law, tort, land law or children’s law etc. It’s headline grabbing and you did decide to quote it. So it worked.

I'm not sure what you're getting at.

I (and they) have mentioned those areas.

I part quoted from this (their site), the full list of options.
"The Law LLB (Hons) degree includes core areas of legal knowledge such as English legal system, public law, criminal law, contract law, tort law, property law, equity and trusts, European Union law, as well as law and social justice. We will also offer optional modules that are likely to include family law, labour law, medical law, company law, law of evidence, law of succession, sports law, environmental law, law and technologies. Students will also have the opportunity to undertake pro bono work experience with relevant organisations. Further optional interdisciplinary and language modules are available from within the School of Social Sciences and Humanities."

Not sure which bit you think is headline grabbing, for those not in the know.

You've taken Social Justice and just assumed it was a degree in that. They, and I, have never said that. I have used the word slant (for Social Justice), not that it is exclusively Social Justice Law.

As you can see from the above it is a (full) law degree with some options that you'd get at a load of other places.

Universities never look at family law very well

Tizer could you explain this?

Of course practitioners will learn more as they progress, and of course unis will look at family law from an academic perspective.

I chose family law in addition to my other commercial law options in year 3 at unviersity and it was very academic and very interesting. It was also taught by Lady Justice Hale as she later became, who eventually became our most senior female judge.

On Loughborouh, although solicitors (but not barristers) do not have to have a "qualifying" law dgree these day,s do check with Loughborough or any other course that it DOES contain the main legal subjects - not all law studies do.

• Criminal Law;
• Equity and Trusts;
• Law of the European Union;
• Obligations 1 (Contract);
• Obligations 2 (Tort);
• Property/Land Law; and
• Public Law (Constitutional Law, Administrative Law and Human Rights Law).

It looks like Loughborough's does cover those www.lboro.ac.uk/study/undergraduate/courses/law-llb/

@stubiff ok. Yes I get that but the “slant” is to attract crusading young people who think they can right wrongs. Otherwise why mention it at all? Must be marketing.

@TizerorFizz It's marketing two things, I think - being open about the slant they have and teaching to their skills. If you look at the Head's bio and those of the staff then almost, if not, all of them have an interest and/or research in that area.

Loughborough may have thought there was demand for that slant, who knows.

At the end of the day, as the guff says, it's still a Law degree.

Those who are really interested in commercial, business or less social justice may/will choose elsewhere.

In the days of cuts, etc, it's good that Loughborough are willing, and have the money (I presume!), to offer it. It's certainly not a massive money-maker if the first cohort is only 125.

Law degrees need cutting though! Not enough jobs. I’d be a bit wary of a new course. Inevitably it’s not got the depth of other law schools or the pedigree.

I wouldn’t waste an application on Warwick unless your young person would meet criteria for contextual offer or international student. My DD loved it after the open day and really had her heart set but was never given an offer despite having the right grades.

later learned how few places they have if you are a British student from a middle class background - regretted applying!

Maybe, but would suggest they need cutting from the very lowest tariff places (as contentious as that may be).

Edit: and would it actually mean that there would be 125 more people studying law v the year before (all other things being equal).
If the number was 1000 you'd probably say no.

Good point about really liking somewhere (and would be your firm choice, pre offers coming in), then not even getting close to an offer.

@stubiff I agree. Others might find it contentious but I don’t. Loughborough isn’t needed though. As they’ve had redundancies to save £millions maybe this course is cheap to run? Using space vacated by deleted courses?

Think Law would be fairly cheap to run, yes.
They said new building, but who knows until DC visit and ask.

@stubiff That’s why they have money worries then! New building! Refurbished would make more sense. Seriously though, Loughborough is a bit remote. No employers near. Leicester, Birmingham and Warwick are better locations and far more established - but the sport might be an attraction! What grades does Birmingham want?

@stubiff I'd make sure he looks at the University optional modules in Y2 and Y3. The first year and most of Y2 will just be the sane compulsory modules to make it a qualifying LLB. But the optional modules can differ so much e.g family law, immigration, human rights, philosophical theory on law etc. Another thing to consider is the teaching and assessment style of the unis, I'm pretty sure York does CBL - case base learning so they break down issues by cases. Obviously all law degrees look at cases, but York structure it differently to some other that do PBL - problem based learning. Also assessment styles - especially if he wants to be a barrister not a solicitor - assessments that may have more debate and negotiation practice could appeal to him more. Obviously they'll be essays but some offer more range in assessment.

Get him to properly read through all the course websites - really think about what he wants to get out of them. Even make a spreadsheet so its all in one nice place. Look at grade requirements, modules and any special things a univeristy has (societies, many law schools have voluntering at a pro bono clinic which will look good). But also look at if he wants to do a placement year (good for experience etc) or a year abroad studying at a different university. If a year abroad interests him, look at the partner universities his main ones offer e.g what unis abroad does Exeter have agreements with.

The most important thing is going to the open days of the ones he likes he most. Honestly it just helps figure out how he feels there, whether he likes the vibe, talking to lectures and current students and would be happy living there for a few years. But he NEEDS to get on with supercurriculars, law is sooo competitive. I'd encourage him to 1. Read theoretical books about law - any topic that interests him but it needs to be a respected book, it good if it challenges him when he reads it. So then in his PS he can talk about what he learnt, and the thoughts he developed from it. Get him to read a few, some universities might do interviews (so then he can have enough to discuss) and even if they don't just so he knows he likes some of the debate within law. Then MOOCs - there are loads on online free ones, again anything he finds interesting and try to push for something academic and complex. Essay competitions, some might be closed now, but even small local ones are good to show initiative and even for good practice for LNAT essay. Books I'd suggest, obviously he only needs to read 1-3 but these are some I think are good:

1. Trials of the State: Law and the Decline of Politics
2. Is Eating People Wrong?: Great Legal Cases and How they Shaped the World
3. The Rule of Law
4. The Ten Legal Cases That Made Modern Britain
5. In Black and White: A Young Battister's Story of Race and Class in a Broken Justice System
6. In Your Defence: True Stories of Life and Law
7. Don't Forget Us Here: Lost and Found in Guantanamo
8. Win Every Argument: The Art of Debating, Persuading and Public Speaking (not about law but useful for the skills).
9. Letters to a Law Student (again many fund this helpful during uni or a read before he starts next summer)

P.S If he wants to be a barrister during university he needs to do mini puppilages during summer, winter, spring to get experience. Also in 1st year get him to join one of the 4 Inns of Court he only has to do this later after the degree but before Bar Course. But you can join from 1st and very good for connections and also events, conferences and lectures. If he wants to be a solicitor focus in 1st on insight weeks at law firms (apply this autumn or spring) and then 2nd year vacation schemes (again apply autumn of 2nd year - honestly keep a spreadsheet to track deadlines and get him focusing on internships and any experience - this is the best way to get a training contract and often they'll pay for his SQE year. These days you need the degree and internships during uni. Sorry if this is a lot.

@TheLivelyViper
Thanks for the reply.
To answer some of the questions - he is interested in the Solicitor route. York do PBL, which I think would be interesting, but DS has said he wants to go further afield as it’s our local Uni.
Supercirriculars - be surprised if he does any. He has two separate weeks of work experience.
I have left the LNAT part with him and won’t be chasing him, but I’d guess he won’t get round to it. He’ll visit Warwick as the only AStar one I think and knows that in his words ‘it’s a long 3-pointer’.

@stubiff had a look at Loughborough online.
My reservations would be it’s a new course and doesn’t have an established law society, links with employers or extras like a student advice clinic. The modules all look pretty standard.
If he’s looking for a campus uni in that geographic area I’d recommend a look at Uni of Leicester. It’s often overlooked as not RG but has a decent reputation (and a lovely law library the harry peach) It’s AAB same as Loughborough but went BBB in clearing last year.
This is an example of law societies at Leicester. With best will in world a brand new course won’t be able to match that as events and employer links are built over time. le.ac.uk/law/study/undergraduate/societies

If he is wanting to sit LNAT registration opens early August. The best times and centres do book up, you don’t want to end up driving miles. I’d suggest he makes the call now whether he’ll sit or not, it sounds like he’s probably preferring not to sit. There’s samples of tests on website to see if it’s something he’s up for or prefer to focus on A level grades. Lots don’t bother as only a handful of unis need LNAT.

York might be worth going to open day as its PBL course is very popular. If it’s nearby it will be an easy one to visit. An option might be live in halls yr1 and home yr2 and 3.

@Confusedformer we are looking there why do you say that please

See FOI and stats I posted on p1. Uk home none contextual students are a low percentage of the law course intake at Warwick.

@MaybeThisTimeILlbeLucky
I think what PP was trying to say was don’t fall in love with a place when there is little chance of an offer.
For AStar tariffs, not just Warwick, if DC only has one AStar prediction then chances of an offer are prob 1 in a hundred.
If DC has 3 AStar then fill your boots.

Even all A* aren’t guaranteed. Warwick is a v popular choice as high ranking and none LNAT. Only 200 and something home none contextual places.
I’ve seen several posts on wikiwau facebook from parents totally befuddled by no offers for top students for law especially if they have aimed for LNAT unis.

Yes Cake. Was just saying that you’d have a lot better chance with 3 AStars v 1 AStar.