Devastated DD - awful reference

[AnonymousStudentParent]

My undergraduate DD recently asked her Personal Tutor, by email, whether he could be her referee for a summer school (prestigious, with a generous scholarship scheme). She attached a link to the website of the summer school and underscored the information relating to the reference. She didn't hear back from her Personal Tutor immediately but after about 3 weeks he emailed briefly saying he'd already submitted the reference (she had anticipated him getting back to her for clarification on a couple of things she had done that she had mentioned in the email that he didn't know about). Yesterday she had a quick beginning of term meeting with him when he outlined to her the devastating terms of the reference, basically saying she was too young and under qualified for the summer school but a nice hardworking person if they wanted to take a chance on her.

My DD is neither too young nor under qualified for the summer school - quite the contrary, she's very amply qualified (though mostly outside the scope of her degree). It's in an area she is extremely knowledgeable about and she has properly researched the summer school. She spent several days in the Christmas holidays writing the extensive application.

She was too flabbergasted to react (and her time with the PT was up) on the spot. Needless to say, this isn't good for her self-confidence. Any advice to how she goes back to the PT and asks him whether he can spend a few minutes looking at the website and her application and rethink his hasty judgement? The deadline for submission of the application isn't for another couple of weeks.

Universities are always going to complain about how much money they have but from a student’s point of view they provide a service which costs real money in a cost of living crisis. Sure there are loans for the fees but attending costs a hell of a lot more. I think the least a student can expect is an accurate reference. Comments about maturity are subjective. Objectively she is the right age. So he was not accurate.

this is what you said

Possibly he has other students who would like a place on this summer school? Maybe MA students? The summer school, which is very small, is unlikely to take more than one student from any single institution.

which would indicate you very much think it’s a possibility this tutor intentionally sabotaged your daughter’s application to favour other students

Isn’t it your DD’s call?

nobody said going in all guns blazing. An upset student going to the HoD for a conversation is not a formal written complaint. It’s the route to raising an issue with someone who the HoD manages and who has made a mistake which impacts your DD.

The universities are complaining because there is a real problem. A good proportion literally don't have enough money to run. The UK doesn't see investing in HE as a social good very much.

If the UK universities are so terrible, then the student can go abroad.

Or, if attending costs are a problem, how about the student living at home and attending?

My brother worked a paid internship summers, and one semester out of four, and the corporation sponsored his tuition. It took him a little longer, but he had a job after. I won bursaries/scholarships/worked. I also had student loans and paid them all off. Don't begrudge that one bit. That's part of it. There are always choices.

If the student doesn't like the reference or thinks the tutor got the wrong age, she can speak to the PT or get a new one. The student however hasn't asked for personal tutoring beyond a 10-minute slot.

As a parent who is paying my adult child’s rent at uni (how else would she manage it) I would be miffed if this happened. Although my DD would be unlikely to tell me about it and also unlikely to apply for a summer school. Parents ARE more invested these days because we are paying a lot!!

If the uni is so strapped for cash it could always charge a fee for writing references and provide a more professional and accurate service.

miffed? you said that tutors and employers should be sued ( 😆) if they give a bad reference with “no good reason)??!

I believe they can be sued. I understand employers do run that risk and that is why they are very cautious these days about writing references. Maybe this lecturer needs some proper training on the legal situation and how to write references.

The rule of thumb should be if you can’t say anything good say nothing at all - or at least just stick to the dates of study and grades. Facts!

oh dear 😆

Why doesn't your adult university student go abroad if cash is tight? US/Australia are quite a bit more expensive, but the continent is cheaper.

There is a service in the states called interfolio. It is an academic dossier service, but that is more for applications for academic positions and it just keeps all the materials in one place.

I think the problem with fees for recommendation lettesr is that it introduces bias...getting paid a fee to do a service can affects the outcome.

The rule of thumb should be if you can’t say anything good say nothing at all

This isn’t year 2 playground

This is one adult asking another adult to write a reference for them, which later transpires not to be glowing!

OP,

If your DD decides to raise a complaint around this she will gain more traction going through proper channels. If she is at an RG+ university, the proper person to contact is the Senior Tutor, Director of Undergraduate Studies or similar.

A complaint made to the Head of School will be glanced at and quickly forwarded to this person anyway.

Regardless of who it goes to, the complaint will certainly be a point of discussion in the next regular meeting between ST/DUS and HoS. However the first scenario shows that your DD understands the responsibilities different people have, and the second brands her a bit of a prima donna.

It’s pretty damned obvious that nobody wants a bad reference! That’s why you can choose a referee and most of us pick someone who will say something nice. TBH I do think the practice of having references will die a death because it’s such a subjective thing. There are other ways to pick the best candidate. Testing for example.

Yes. I'm wondering why it seems there is a reluctance to go through these channels.

what’s your point?

My point is she didn’t want a bad reference and the tutor shouldn’t have been negative. He could have just stuck to the facts.

Tbh I have generally been impressed with the clarity and efficiency (and common sense of) procedures and policies at my DD's university. They are certainly a massive improvement on anything that I encountered myself when I was a student. However, I do definitely get the sense that while physical facilities and procedures and policies are all greatly improved in a generation, and access to knowledge massively facilitated by technology (with the corresponding requirement for students to be far more discerning in their approach to information, a whole other minefield), actual access to academics is not improved at all. Some academics seem to have fantastic teaching skills, mostly the ones who were not trained in the UK, but that of course is probably more a reflection on people's improved communication skills when they have needed to learn to function in another culture than on the UK's teaching standards per se.

My DD doesn't particularly need hand holding at university but I am aware that she turns to her parents for some things that perhaps in other circumstances, with more readily available adults, she might not. When you know that any meeting with a tutor is going to last for minutes at best, you prep the meeting to death and rehearse your words with your mum/dad/sister/brother/flatmate etc. Which is IMO very good practice for the world of work, so no harm done.

I don’t recall OP threatening to go to HoS. I presume the suggestion has come from PPs who do not understand the system

I agree that’s certainly what I would have done in DD’s position. This is not a guns blazing situation nor does it have to be a complaint, it can be framed as a request for advice.

the fact she didn’t “want” a bad reference is neither here nor there

At no point have I ever suggested raising a complaint. That is a suggestion by PP. I welcome ideas from everyone (there are some extremely useful insights on this thread) but that doesn't mean I entertain them all.

But your DD never asked for more than 10 minutes with the PT, is that correct? Why do you have to prep for it like mad, if your DD won't ask for more time. She can.

Some academics seem to have fantastic teaching skills, mostly the ones who were not trained in the UK, but that of course is probably more a reflection on people's improved communication skills when they have needed to learn to function in another culture than on the UK's teaching standards per se.

Well, if you feel that way...that people trained in the UK don't have a lot to offer your DD in teaching, why isn't she going to a university in another country? The problem would be solved then, right?

I've not read the entire thread. However, I am an ex-academic (RG university).

She sent the reference request at the start of the Christmas holidays. The PT would also have been on holiday then (whilst academics don't have the same holidays as students, most close for Christmas). He was therefore being required to write this in his personal time, probably with other things going on and quite probably with multiple other requests to deal with. She should have asked for this during term-time, or made it clear that the reference was not required until well after Christmas.

It can get quite frustrating for academics when students seem to expect them to be on 24/7 duty. My previous institution also had a policy of response to requests within 48 hours.

I'd say get a second reference from a different academic and just wait and see what the outcome is. Perhaps also consider a different referee for future applications if there's a member of staff she is better known to.

Because she's not in the business of wasting other people's time unnecessarily, which is IMO a good approach to life.

The vast majority of the academics she has come across haven't been trained exclusively or even at all in the UK.

the amount of time her mother has wasted arguing on this thread!

Everyone on this thread has freely engaged - absolutely no obligation for anyone!