Ideal university for Medicine

[Kayt79]

DS is in Y12, and set on Medicine. He's been to a few open days already, but until he's done his UCAT next summer it's impossible to know where will be realistic to apply.

So, just out of interest, and putting aside entry requirements and "prestige", which would be your ideal universities for Medicine, based on the overall student experience?

Why so many IMG applications?

Compared to 10 years ago it’s timesed by 10.

Plopsofa, two issues:

1. Getting work at all. Informally known as F3. These are also sought after by overseas doctors some of whom will apply for everything that comes up regardless of suitability. Many hospitals will be too busy to sift through so it becomes easier to use an agency who sifts for them. This agency will be recruiting from overseas. The busy F2 therefore has to apply for lots of jobs in the hope that someone somewhere spots their application. Really unfair given they are already working 70+ hours per week, including regular nights and longs. Or be able to use whatever network they have built up. EG we know someone who has landed an F3 job in London but only after a spell of zero-hours covering shifts in a busy A&E in the same hospital for a few months. Lack of money is not a reasonable excuse here.
2. Getting a training place. It was an average of one training place in 4, including GP, but with the backlog the ratio will probably have got worse. These too are open to overseas doctors on an equal basis, even though it is known that a good proportion will then return home at consultancy level and enjoy a remunerative private practice. (The problem with private practice is that everyone wants to see a consultant so there is less scope to train junior doctors so better to come to the UK for that.)

As I understand it , because of on line applications and interviews.

If you are IT savvy you can set alerts and apply for everything that comes up. Then, according to a doctor who posted here on another thread, hospitals are inundated with thousands of applications so set tight deadlines, and perhaps don't have the scope to sift carefully. Unfortunately the busy F2 probably needs to wait till they have a couple of days off before sitting down to look for a job, by which time they may be too late. (Hence why the best bet is networks. If DD put there word out in places where she had already done a placement she would be tipped off if something was coming up. And thus why it helps to have a parent who is a doctor as their networks can be added to the mix.)

Or just accept that Wes/the NHS are not bothered about retaining UK educated/trained doctors and apply to an agency recruiting for roles in Australia.

Even if it is Government policy to give everyone equal treatment there must be scope to have NHS experience as a desirable attribute. In DDs trust they are recruiting all the way up to consultant level from overseas, and from an extraordinarily wide mix of countries. Some are good, others not, which then has implications for care and the for future training of the next generation of doctors.

@Needmoresleep has your DD really averaged out 70+ hours a week across her 6+ months as an F2 in her trust?
With regards recruitment of IMG without NHS experience, I think it is difficult to stop for F3, SAS and consultant posts but usually the appointment of a non resident has to be justified by there being no UK candidate with the necessary attributes.

I do wonder how much the undercurrent of further strike action threats by the BMA has shaped recruitment practices by senior NHS management.

How dare the BMA ask for pay restoration. Let's punish UK doctors for asking for fair pay - weird thing to do, since the UK paid to train those doctors - the ones it's forcing abroad. People say 'make them work in the NHS for 5/10 years to repay those costs', not realising that many can't. Because the jobs have gone to IMGs.

V v easy to prioritise UK graduates for any job. Every other country does it. Every other profession in this country prioritises UK nationals (you can only fill the job from abroad if not enough UK candidates).

This is not racist. UK graduates come from all over the world. 42% are BAME. Currently we are training doctors but not employing them, which seems a stupid waste of money.

@sendsummer my F2 has averaged well over 60+ hours since August. ED and AMU have been a bit busy. Double shifts have been done as no other doctor turned up. Yes, it's been exception reported - which I'm v sure will be ignored by management.

Meanwhile they are supposed to study for an exam that determines their future. No time off for revision. Had to haggle for time off the exam.

“Every other profession in this country prioritises UK nationals (you can only fill the job from abroad if not enough UK candidates).”

Since when did the rules change in the U.K.?

This must have been introduced at some point.

But surely it’s now back-firing.

Why would Wes Streeting not discuss it? What is he hiding or not addressing?

What repercussions are there for prioritising British nationals for jobs in U.K. British hospitals?

Why would this recruitment practice continue when there’s clearly an abundance of U.K. graduates to employ instead?

It feels borderline illegal, I’m wondering where the whole premise started from that hiring international doctors was equal/preferable.

Sounds familiar.

Although my DS didn't actually haggle. He gave masses of notice of his exam (registrar's final one - not sure what it's called). He was put on the rota and eventually just had to say he wasn't actually going to be in that day - they finally sorted a locum.

@PlopSofa 🤷‍♀️ stupid isn't it

From chatGPT

The decision-making process for hospitals when choosing between British graduates and foreign-born doctors for positions, including F3 roles (the third year after completing Foundation Year 1 and 2), is shaped by both legal and ethical considerations. While the NHS recruitment system is generally merit-based, several key legal frameworks and policies affect the process:
1. Equality and Discrimination Laws
Under the Equality Act 2010, NHS employers must ensure that all candidates, whether from the UK or abroad, are treated fairly and without discrimination based on race, nationality, or ethnic origin. This means:

• Non-discriminatory recruitment: Hospitals must base recruitment decisions on skills, qualifications, experience, and merit, not on the candidate’s nationality or place of training.
• Transparency in selection: The process must be transparent, and there must be clear, job-related criteria for selecting candidates. For example, a foreign-born doctor and a British graduate must be assessed on their clinical capabilities, relevant training, and other qualifications, rather than nationality.

So nationally doesn’t come into it…

There is no legal obligation to hire British graduates, it’s a global market place. Anyone can apply. Wow.

and https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/mar/15/791-medical-graduates-could-miss-out-on-nhs-junior-doctor-training

Its all so poorly thought through.

I do see that NHS doctors could be seen as more militant/ trouble than those coming from overseas but I completely don't understand the increases in medical student places - lauded again only yesterday by some minister or another talking about A&E wait times - coupled with the blanking of questions about the post F2 situation by Wes Streeting.

There’s a difference between no discriminating between eg an Indian doctor who has been here 20 years vs a UK grad - hopefully nobody would agree that people who are already resident here should be discriminated against on the basis of their place of birth or medical school.

Quite different to recruiting new doctors from overseas and not prioritising existing trainees who are already here, which I think most people disagree with.

Absolutely agree with that distinction Saschka.

Of course. This is very much a discussion about recruitment of British new graduates into British hospitals. That’s a fair discussion isn’t it?

No other profession opens its doors globally it seems?

Id assume a foreign born doctor that had been here 20 years was already gainfully employed and doing a great job!

Yes absolutely a fair discussion. It's totally mad for the country to carry the cost and effort of educating new doctors and then not use them.

IMG applicants were applying in large numbers long before the BMA strikes. The salaries in countries the IMGs come from can average about £400 monthly. That's £4800 basic yearly. Some come with years of medical experience and are prepared to start lower down the NHS career ladder.
I think the government has to take a long term view and prioritise UK trained medical students for speciality training etc. UK medical students here go through such rigorous training and tough exams. It's impossible for the NHS to be certain of the quality of the training and experience IMGs have had. It's such a waste to lose UK medical graduates to Australia, NZ, etc. Also IMGs that come from countries far away often come with young families to settle here so it's not necessarily cheap to employ IMGs. Taking time to settle IMGs in and retraining them to NHS standards take up NHS time. It is not practical for IMGs to fly to their home countries for weekends or short holidays like pre-Brexit NHS staff from the EU did. Most IMGs eventually settle in the UK or move to countries with similar or better opportunities/salaries once they finish NHS speciality training as they then have globally recognised and respected UK medical qualifications.

I understand due to poor forecasting by successive British governments we have had to buy in experience from abroad over the years.

However it now feels like the market is tight, too tight in fact and that there should be some amendments made to recruitment practices that prioritise British medical graduates. The tail is currently wagging the dog.

It's not tight. It's massively oversubscribed. So we have enough F2s to fill the speciality spots. But they won't all get them due to the number of IMGs applying. Ratios of 1:30 in some specialities, minimum 1:10 in most.

There are F3 jobs, but 1,000+ applications are received (many from bots abroad) and so by the time the F2 comes off their shift the job has closed.

We need doctors. We train doctors. But we don't seem to want to employ them.

I mean tight as in bursting point from the number of applicants. I can see how that could be misconstrued though. And probably I could have used a different word to better effect.

Still maddening all the same.

Does the British Medical Association have anything to say on this? Do they ever get involved?

@PlopSofa yes. Yesterday they passed a motion to ask government to prioritise UK grads. It's a start. But won't be in time for mine and needsmore F2s. So they'll likely end up in Australia by the end of the year. With £100,000 debt and valuable NHS experience going with them.

You're probably being unnecessarily gloomy mumsneedwine. If your DD has done as well as she seems to have done and isn't set on the most competitive deaneries (you say she likes being out of London) then she's got a good chance of getting an offer for the next step. Some F2s limit their chances by putting only London as their preference. Although perhaps she likes the idea of Australia just for a change - plenty seem to. And of those that I know who went to Australia for a year, their next steps don't seem to have been harmed at all by going (one came top nationally in one of the most competitive specialties last year).

Do you know if Wes Streeting is aware of all this and what efforts are being made to fix the issues with training places for UK trained medical graduates? Worried about DC who is in medical school. Currently enthusiastic medical student who is enjoying hospital placements.

Well Wes Streeting has been asked about it enough and his lack of response has been noted, so presumably he is a) aware and b) not prepared to voice an opinion.