Ideal university for Medicine

[Kayt79]

DS is in Y12, and set on Medicine. He's been to a few open days already, but until he's done his UCAT next summer it's impossible to know where will be realistic to apply.

So, just out of interest, and putting aside entry requirements and "prestige", which would be your ideal universities for Medicine, based on the overall student experience?

What specialty is your DC interested in? (although perhaps you'd prefer not to say).

@AsTearsGoBy but there are no jobs to slog away at. Locums pretty much gone. V v few F3 roles. There are no jobs to work in.

@AsTearsGoBy rather not say what specialities she's applied too. Some people on here know me and her and it's her business not mine.

2 of her Uni friends have left to work in consulting. V sad.

Agreed . Leeds also great

If F2s can't even tread water if they don't progress first time around then I've fundamentally misunderstood just how dire the situation for them is. I was assuming they'd be able to carry on as they were. I think you're saying that it's up or out. Why aren't the government reducing medical school numbers in that case?

Its not decisions as such.

DD decided to focus on F1/F2 whilst achieving some sort of work life balance. We should not forget that though they were not as affected as those in previous years, this cohort's University experience was heavily impacted by Covid. DD spent the whole of her intercalation year and the six months before, in her childhood bedroom and only got on campus for her graduation. She is loving where she is and loves her work, so has left studying for the exam that allows you to be considered for specialist training until next year.

She should be applying for jobs more or less about now. Mainly short term locum or clinical teaching fellow jobs. Anywhere in the country - you take what you get - or overseas. With the huge local and international competition UK jobs are very hard to get so it is probably overseas.

DD has not made any decisions, and seems to be ducking everything till the end of F2. There is quite a lot of F1/F2 drop out where she is (it was about 15% within six months with her first group) so if nothing else, she should pick up some short notice work covering F1/F2 shifts whilst she applies and waits to hear. She assumes Australia. She suggested that all but two out of the 15 on one placement were talking about going to Australia.

Some obviously took the exam along with the F1/F2, though the pass rate is tough. Some deaneries offer much better terms than others and some new doctors are far more focussed than others. Those will then be in a position to apply for specialist training.

Australia seems to prefer UK trained doctors, to say those trained in Bulgaria. (Bulgaria has a lot of international medical students.) We don't seem to mind where people trained as long as they jump the hurdles set for them by the NHS. Hence the inflows and outflows.

@AsTearsGoBy they are increasing medical school places. But not providing any more jobs. And allowing any doctor from anywhere in the world to apply. They can't just stay after F3, they have to find a new job. But there aren't enough for them so they'll be unemployed.

After F2. F3 options v limited this year.

We need doctors, we have trained the doctors we need. But Wes doesn't seem to want to employ them.

I feel so discouraged by this thread for DD who is doing medicine A Levels and seriously considering it as a degree.

Will things have changed in 5 years time?

I wish I had a crystal ball. So difficult to advise her positively about this choice.

I'm also wondering when this roadblock at F2 began?

Which year did the increase in medical school places start? 2018? Does this problem with progression date from when those students would have graduated plus two years? In other words is it an issue for the first time this year? or does it pre-date that and the situation is merely exacerbated by the increase in medical school places?

This is the problem. No more jobs have been created in this period.

@AsTearsGoBy increasing medical school places wouldn't really matter. The influx of IMGs has meant NHS experienced doctors don't get jobs (because of the stupidity of how jobs are given).

No Locums (as NHS uses non doctors instead), no F3 jobs (NHS uses non doctors instead - some doing surgery). So in the last 18 months the situation has become very bleak.

This. It's a mess.

I have been banging this drum since 2019 when the change happened. Move to online interviews has resulted in massive expansion of applications and time needed to sift for decent trainees. It is so time consuming and the trainees appointed have often not worked in the UK and are effectively supernumerary in their ability for at least 6 months.
the treasury is blocking an increase in training posts not Wes Streeting apparently.

@Soundofshuna might not need more money if they just made it mandatory to have 2 years NHS experience before applying for training. Be like every job, only fill from overseas if no candidates here.

But it's a mess.

They do need more money as there is actually a shortage of posts too( but agree ring fencing for UK graduates would help things)

One quick fix might be to look at how locums are recruited.

Those finishing F2 who have not sat the exams will be looking for year long locum jobs, informally known as F3s. These are the sort of jobs that in her hard-to-recruit deanery will mainly be filled by overseas doctors recruited by agencies. Presumably because it is easier than handling a load of individual applications for both the UK and overseas.

DD could probably get something by asking those who she has worked with in the past and ask them to alert her to anything coming up. She will also be able to get work doing temporary cover for F1/F2 shifts as she knows who they currently use and, well, consultants would be very happy to see her. But her contacts are limited to the placements she has done and the hospitals she has worked in. (One reason why children of doctors seem to do better - their networks are wider.) Filling out lots and lots of applications in the hope that someone somewhere is diligent enough to sift through rather than simply phone an agency would take more time than she has. It will be far less time consuming to approach an agency recruiting for Australian jobs.

Surely the solution is to make it easier for UK based doctors to apply for positions. An agency specifically to match UK applicants with UK jobs? An app where you load your CV as well as your preferred work areas and locations? Trusts to give more weight to NHS experience when recruiting?

The excuse is always "money". The fact is that many of the doctors coming over for specialist training will want to go back at consultant level when they will be able to set up lucrative private practices. Short term economy or long term savings?

@Needmoresleep now that is a fantastic idea. Wish I could set an agency up !

When you say “money” @Needmoresleep what cost saving is there to bringing in a doctor from abroad vs taking on a U.K. graduate?

How can it be wise to create all the extra training spaces for U.K. undergraduates, only to be unable to give them jobs? Isn’t that a waste of money?

The tail is wagging the dog. And the dog is not functioning at all.

It sounds like a legacy of when there weren’t enough doctors in the U.K. and we started bringing them in from anywhere.

But where else in the U.K. so foreign applicants have equal or higher status than U.K. applicants?

Shouldnt this be borderline illegal now that we have a surplus of students?

Uk is actively hiring and discriminating against their own graduates.

Is it discrimination?

It's total stupidity and the Australians are laughing all the way to the bank. A steady flow of UK trained doctors and no costs of putting them through med school.

Do they stay there?

I've known two GPs go there and come back. Another young doctor go, and again come back.

OK that's only three but I don't actually know all that many medics.

I wonder why the international candidates get the jobs when the exam pass rate is much lower for international candidates.

There are sooooo many of them now applying, and it's not just exam. It's F3 jobs too.

Isn’t this a national scandal?

I can’t understand why this isn’t headline news?

Does no national newspaper want to touch it because they don’t understand? Because it’s politicised? Why is this not being openly discussed?

We have massive waiting lists. All kinds of doctors at levels of burn out never seen before. Doctors retiring at record rates.

And yet no extra places at hospitals?

And those places that are available filled from abroad?

Something doesn’t add up.

How can we get this into the newspapers?

It affects the entire nation retrospectively and well into the future.