Ideal university for Medicine

[Kayt79]

DS is in Y12, and set on Medicine. He's been to a few open days already, but until he's done his UCAT next summer it's impossible to know where will be realistic to apply.

So, just out of interest, and putting aside entry requirements and "prestige", which would be your ideal universities for Medicine, based on the overall student experience?

The quality of the IMG intake is variable. Some are very good, especially if they have years of prior experience before coming to the UK, others aren't competent in the jobs they have been accepted into. I know this having heard from an IMG who stayed with us when she came to the UK to do her PLAB 2 exams. DF has now been in the UK for over a year so I am aware of other IMG applicants' experiences too. She and her family did consider other countries including Australia (where she has family) but according to her Australia would prefer if she was UK trained first. According to her, the pathway of getting a speciality post here is much easier. The overall support for her accompanying family was an important consideration. A friend she made on her online PLAB course from another country got a FY post within the NHS as she didn't have enough clinical experience after qualifying from medical school. A colleague at the NHS hospital who came in at Consultant level wasn't competent in that job and HR had to deal with that!!

@AsTearsGoBy I'm afraid you are sadly out of touch.

@AsTearsGoBy she wants to stay in the NHS. But needs to come in the top 10% in MSRA to even secure an interview. For any deanery. That's about 12 people.

Sorry. 110 people. Typed when cooking 🧑🏽‍🍳

That’s good to know.

With your DC possibly off to Australia, if they do go and spend time there, are they allowed back to the U.K. to apply as an international?

What a merry go round?!

Yes, going by your previous bar chart, international applications have increased 10 fold since 2014.

uk graduates look to be steady with roughly the same graduating each year. The purple section (I think it was that colour?) doesn’t seem to have increased in size much over the years but it’s hard to see with a fuzzy jpeg.

and that’s despite all the chat about increased places.

mumsneedwine only 110 get interviews across the UK? (Also cooking!).

I'm not sure I'm that out of touch even though admittedly I can't remember all the shorthand names for the various stages. As in, almost none of DS's contemporaries from uni haven't been placed, and he's really not that far ahead of your own DD. Although I did think locum jobs were far thicker on the ground than you suggest, so I was certainly wrong there. But I think I'm correct that some deaneries are much easier to get placed in than others?

Do you think an option would be to have all entrants applying for NHS training jobs (whether from the UK or IMGs) do the same exams instead of PLAB 1& 2? It's not fair that UK medical graduates are not prioritised. The PLAB route is perhaps easier than the medical exam system UK graduates have to navigate. Why is every medical graduate UK or otherwise not doing the same exams ie UK MLA/MSRA. By maintaining the PLAB system and not being in the same exam cohort, the UK entrants are not being compared fairly/correctly with IMGs. There is room for leniency for IMGs based on NHS need but not for DC going through the medical school system here.

@AsTearsGoBy as you can see, many specialities have v few positions. For 9 jobs they'll interview about 50 I believe. For 25 jobs about 110.

To get an interview for IMT this year you needed so many points, pretty much out of the range of an F2. Doing a full time job in the NHS.

medical.hee.nhs.uk/medical-training-recruitment/medical-specialty-training/competition-ratios/2024-competition-ratios

@OneMorePiece not fair, as F2s are trying to do the exam while working stupid hours. Some IMGs are just taking time out to get to the UK. Can't blame them, but if we pay to train our doctors we should ensure they get a job first.

What happened to this process during the Covid years of 2020/2021/2022?

mumsneedwine thanks for the link. I can see a competition ratio of 3.69 for IMT but I can't see anything about points required for an interview, or why those points would be impossible to achieve for a current F2. I can also see that IMT is by no means the most competitive.

Totally agree with you. My DC is in medical school here unaware of the difficulties much higher up the pathway. Another DC wanting to do medicine too. I am hoping the situation improves in time! I know most other countries give priority to their own medical graduates. It also appears to be the case that in sectors other than medicine, UK graduates can lose out to foreign graduates when applying to much sought after UK based jobs whereas again in other countries, they do specify that their own nationals are given priority first! For example, highly able overseas students some paying expensive overseas student fees at London universities do so in the hope of securing jobs in London after graduating.

@AsTearsGoBy needed 15 points minimum. So needed to be published (costs money), presented at a conference (costs money) or have a PhD. Most F2s just about gave enough time to go to the toilet.

https://www.imtrecruitment.org.uk/recruitment-process/applying/application-scoring

Read this and tell me it's fair

https://www.reddit.com/r/doctorsUK/comments/1gzk7vk/chancesofftrainingsoounbelievablyloww_now/

Fair ?

It seems a mess for sure. I'm torn about the value of Reddit posts though, tbf. I haven't come across Reddit other than very occasionally if we're eg waiting at Gatwick for a delayed plane, one of my DDs sometimes fills in the time by reading me Am I the Asshole?

But clearly some F2s do get through and surely they can't all have papers published etc. I think my DS did have a paper published but it certainly didn't cost any money - I think he gave a short talk at a sponsored conference too but again, nil cost (the paper was something to do with an area he was on rotation on but not the specialty he wanted to go into).

Not just unfair. Recently attended an appointment at a hospital where an IMG saw me. She struggled to understand my questions on my condition and gave me very general answers. She also conducted a procedure (which I had previously had done with little discomfort by other doctors) Unfortunately this time it was so uncomfortable, I was gagging as it was painful. As she moved to press a button, she accidentally pulled on the nasoendoscope. I had a headache and pain for 2 days. A few days later, I received a letter written by her with a poor standard of English. I have seen IMGs before years ago but they were competent. I didn't have confidence in this doctor.

@AsTearsGoBy assume your child was not an F2 in the last 12 months. Things have changed so much.

No he's just finished the next stage mumsneedwine.

So the change is dramatic for those leaving medical school in 2023 but was fine in the years prior to that? What are the key changes? Not doubting you; trying to understand.

Unfortunately a number of the links are too blurred to read/ get info from.

So looking back, all doctors were added to the UK SOL and therefore exempt from the Resident Labour Market Test from October 2019. IMGs applying for academic research posts are not exempt.

IMG do have to go through a lot of hoops though to be eligible. Also application numbers look much worse than they actually are as any applicant can apply to as many posts as they want across the multiple specialties.

How we judge the best applicants is always going to be hard. It is true that the point system needs forward planning as early as medical school. IMGs may have acquired them through unpaid internships. However I agree that we all want the doctor who prioritises patients as well as having the requisite academic standards.

As I understand it, the Resident Labour Market Test was replaced with the UK points based immigration system when the Tories were in government. There is no longer a need for employers to satisfy the Resident Labour Market Test which ensured that UK applicants were prioritised for* *jobs (not just medical) in the UK. The new points based system is less stringent and offer an easier route for foreign workers to enter employment and potentially settle in the UK. The ability to bring your family over is also attractive hence the huge influx of IMGs.

Looking at your graphs, it appears the largest influx of IMGs occured after the Resident Labour Market Test was abolished in 2021 in favour of the Points Based Immigration system. Perhaps the Resident Labour Market Test should be reinstated until the government figures out what to do regarding this issue given we have unemployed UK trained doctors who have undergone rigourous training throughout medical school available for these jobs. There should be a pause in recruitment from overseas for the jobs and priority should be given to UK doctors instead of training and equipping overseas doctors with specialist qualifications thereby undermining local students who have worked hard at school their entire lives to achieve their dreams of becoming doctors.

Also application numbers look much worse than they actually are as any applicant can apply to as many posts as they want across the multiple specialties

Of course - that's a key point which I'd forgotten. I wonder what the raw numbers are of F2s trying for a training post as against those who don't get one at all (or don't accept one because it's not the specialty they hoped for and they prefer to try again)?

Clearly lots of people throw their hat into eg the cardiothoracic ring but that doesn't mean that all those not getting an offer will be without any offer at all.

@AsTearsGoBy Raw numbers are 4.79:1 if you even it out over all specialities. So you've less than a 25% chance of getting a job. 3 years ago it was 1.53:1.

NHS figures of who applied to multiple specialities (lots don't). And link to more detailed FOI request (not mine !)

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/applicantstoomorethannone_spec