Ideal university for Medicine

[Kayt79]

DS is in Y12, and set on Medicine. He's been to a few open days already, but until he's done his UCAT next summer it's impossible to know where will be realistic to apply.

So, just out of interest, and putting aside entry requirements and "prestige", which would be your ideal universities for Medicine, based on the overall student experience?

they may like it less when they are applying for a consultant post and find it goes to a better qualified candidate from outside the UK

If the international applicant is better qualified then that seems fair. My own DS is under no illusions about competition for consultant posts. He made that clear on the same phone call that he told me he'd got his offer through and scored sufficiently well to have his choice of either London area, north or south. That was tempered with the fact that he won't be a consultant at the end of the four years unless he applies for and is selected for a consultant job. He clearly thinks very highly of a lot of his senior international colleagues in London. At some point this career should be based on merit, and DS has given every indication that that's something he's always understood.

Needmoresleep although a few posters here seem keen to agitate, you said that stats could be left to one side. The figures most recently posted by sendsummer make for more sensible reading than illusory claims based on anecdata (and the example of the four F2s on this thread is not compelling: two have applied and are waiting for offers of a training post and don't yet know the outcome; one has applied for an F3 post in his current department and doesn't know the outcome; the fourth hasn't applied for anything at all but has a good strategic plan in place for next year and her subsequent application).

I hope sendsummer doesn't mind but these figures really do need to be absorbed, so for anyone who missed them:

2021 64% of accepted offers were UK graduates. (9761 posts)
2023 59.5% of accepted offers were UK graduates (10037 posts)
These numbers show increments of <5% between 2021 and 2023 for IMGs (including EU trained).
Importantly the profile is dependent on how popular the speciality is for UK graduates.
The highest proportion of IMGs were for GP, psychiatry and histopathology.
with 48% UK graduates for GP training in 2021 and 50% in 2023. Only 55% of UK graduates with offers for GP training accepted that offer. Similar for those with psychiatry offers. So the appointable IMGs were filling a gap here.
Radiology, Emergency medicine, Anaesthetics are at least 85% UK graduates in 2023. Paediatrics 67%.
As GP training posts are over 45% of total entry level training posts, this proportion skews the proportions obtained for all accepted offers

AsTearsGoBy we should agree to disagree. You may be right,. Your son is doing well so there based on his experience there is not a problem.

My DD reports that most of her peers are expecting to have to leave the UK. n The competition is too tough. That is a different experience.

There are not that many mums who have stuck around on these boards and who have DC completing F2. Indeed me, LoveCats, Haff, and Mumsneedwine may be a 100% sample. Our DC may be taking different approaches but they are all reporting that the level of competition is making the next step very difficult. Three envisage that they will have to go to Australia,. the fourth is expecting to have to rely on bank work covering for staff sickness.

Despite your faith in them, statistics will only tell you part of the story. Sendsummer has already confirmed that the NHS do not record application numbers or the timing of application windows, something that is forming a major deterrent to our DC applying to a range of posts. She has also pointed out that our DC not submitting lots of applications, in the same way that overseas applicants are able to do, will not show up on the statistics. The assumption will be that UK trained doctors are leaving in every bigger numbers so even more overseas doctors need to be incentivised to apply.

My reason for mainly focussing on anecdote, just adding a few key statistics, is that like you the NHS reads the stats and seems to think things are fine. Our experience tells us differently.

I recognise you don't see a problem and don't see the need for action. Your DS may be right that the NHS is better off recruiting and training well qualified overseas doctors that our inexperienced F2s. I hope though you understand how very upset I and others are. It would help me a lot if you were to hold back a bit from responding to my posts. I am willing to listen to other views, including Sendsummer, who though we often disagree, has, I hope, learned as much from us as we have from her. But we have very different approaches and are unlikely to ever agree. You are very lucky that your DS is doing very well and able to forge a career in the UK.

I think my views are being distorted Needmoresleep. I've said on a number of occasions that there's a very clear problem. The expansion of medical school places for starters, without a corresponding plan for expansion higher up. I don't understand it at all unless it's simply that someone has thrown up their hands in despair because there isn't capacity at consultant level to train more juniors. In which case why not use international consultants to perform precisely that role?

I'm very definitely not the sort of person who thinks a system is outrageous if my own DC don't do well, or indeed that everything is dandy is they do do well. That's a very narrow approach but of course I quite see why any parent is upset when things don't go well and a DC is miserable and worried because things aren't working out as planned. That's completely natural.

But the fact remains there is a level of hyperbole on here which doesn't align with the statistics. DS has now said (I asked, obviously, precisely because of this thread) that the F2s on his wards seem to be faring ok so far with training posts. The process isn't over yet of course. So this thing about the view from different geographical areas could be important, or it could be false based on a tiny sample.

An AIBU will probably end badly, and may take no more than a page or two for it to plunge into pretty horrible politics.

I wish MN had a block function.

You don't need to read Needmoresleep. I'm pretty much just re-iterating statistics which show a much less extreme version of what's happening with training post allocation than the one being mooted by the F2 parents on here. And I'm throwing in my own anecdote too, sparingly. It's not that there's not a problem; it's the scale of it. And you've now mentioned the peer group shaping behaviour - that was a suggestion I made pages back which was dismissed really quite crossly. I may be wrong about different outcomes according to deanery but it's at least plausible and may very well shape behaviour.

Anyhow I will actually leave you to it - it's too circular for me.

As they chanted at the Vitality Stadium when Notts Forrest were 5-0 down...cheerio, cheerio, cheerio.

@Needmoresleep block function would be v useful.

Might be worth starting a new thread with regards to working conditions of current doctors as this one has derailed considerably from the original question posed by the OP…

My DS did medicine at Nottingham, graduated about 2 years ago, he applied to Kings, Nottingham, Cardiff and St George's. He initially planned for Kings as his first choice but having visited for interviews decided he preferred Nottingham campus rather than a city one like Kings. He was really happy at Nottingham and the course there is intercalated so finished a year earlier than other unis. We also know students who went to Manchester and Birmingham both liked them. I think ultimately it will depend on your child as to where they think they like.
I was glad he went Nottingham. The campus is lovely.

Hundreds of British Medical Graduates Lose Out To International Doctors In Unfair Recruitment Practice

Or Daily Mail style

International Doctors Swipe Hundreds of NHS Jobs from Young British Medics

Junior doctors in the U.K. are facing an employment crisis as they seek to secure key training within the NHS, only to find that recent recruitment changes have destroyed their chances of a long term career with the NHS.

Many are now seeking employment elsewhere in locations such as Australia and Canada, leaving behind family and friends as they have no other choice if they wish to continue their career.

In 2019 the law changed so that a Type 2 visa became unnecessary for doctors to gain before applying for an NHS role. In effect this opened up NHS posts to global applications. In 2020 the criteria were further relaxed and U.K. graduates who had previously enjoyed priority for NHS jobs, had now to start to compete with international applicants.

The U.K. experienced large gaps in medical staffing and long waiting lists due to the Covid-19 pandemic and this change was likely warranted. Urgent medical and clinical help was needed.

However, five years later in 2025, British medical graduates are now experiencing unprecedented competition for posts which would historically have been guaranteed as theirs.

Particular stress is appearing around the F3 level (please insert simple explanation).

F2 medic trainee XYZ explains “I’ve been trying to gain an F3 training post but I’m unable to even apply, as by the time I get off my shift, due the thousands of applications for any of these roles, the application window has shut.”

Word has got round internationally about the new route into the U.K. for international doctors and YouTube channels have sprung up to advise candidates, such as ‘Road To The U.K.’ with 89,000 followers, which highlight how popular this medical opportunity is becoming. Video titles appear such as “How to be a doctor in the U.K. as an international medical graduate” and “How much will I earn as a doctor in the U.K.” have hundreds of thousands of views.

Whilst there is no doubt there are still gaps in the U.K. NHS workforce, the complete relaxation of the recruitment criteria now means that U.K. medical graduates are being pipped at the post by international hires.

The BMA has become aware of the situation and has promised to look into the issue.

please insert quote.

The question remains though as to why British governments have increased medical school places, and extolled the virtues of this policy to the public, only for the graduates themselves to discover they must compete internationally for British NHS training.

Further questions arise about the commitment of the international doctors who come here in the longer term.

Not only that, but as we import international doctors, U.K. medical graduates are having to apply elsewhere. A Reddit post in December 2024 by user XYZ suggests just how bad the problem has got, titled “F3 is dead”. Hundreds of comments agree with this sentiment with posters suggesting applying abroad to continue their career to taking locum shifts, but even here, there is no longer much work on offer.

Suddenly, becoming a doctor in the U.K. no longer looks like a viable prospect for a larger and larger number of British medical graduates each year. As we import from abroad, which raises its own ethical questions, British graduates are leaving for v better pay and conditions elsewhere. Does the government not have some responsibility to answer these graduates’ concerns, those that would like to stay but can’t, and create a better system of employment as surely the current one is dysfunctional.

In 2021, 64% of accepted offers for training were U.K. graduates.

In 2023, 59.5% of accepted offers for training were U.K. graduates.

What will this figure have slipped to in 2025?

First draft, needs sources, data and verified quotes. Feel free to ditch as well! No need to use any of it. Good luck all 🍀

And apologies if there are any glaring errors. I’m not in the medical world so there may be some mistakes.

I think we are OK here for the time being unless OP objects. MN threads often deviate from their main theme.

@OneMorePiece I have spent much of the morning editing and reediting based on your initial structure. It is quite a complicated issue to put across to a general readership. I hope it is OK. I can post or would be equally happy for you to do so.

AIBU to be furious that there are no jobs for young doctors.

Yes, you read it right!

At the end of their two foundation years, young UK trained doctors are struggling to find work. They don’t want to go to Australia or NZ but for many this will be the only option. Seven or eight years study and work down the drain.

The UK supposedly has a shortage of doctors, so immigration rules have been amended to encourage overseas applicants. They then complete equally with those who are working in, or studied in the UK for both general entry level jobs (F3s) and for speciality training positions.

The average hard-working doctor does not stand much of a chance. Anecdotally even quite ordinary vacancies will attract hundreds if not thousands of on-line applications. The NHS does not keep statistics, but it appears that to keep numbers manageable many NHS Trusts will shut applications within a few hours. Tough for the junior doctor who is at work or sleeping off a night shift. The best from overseas will be very qualified with perhaps a decade of experience, and lots of additional bells and whistles, so it probably does not matter. They will score better so the chance of an interview for a young doctor who needs to build their own experience will be vanishingly low.

The expansion of medical school places, and allocation of some of these traditional entry level roles to Physician Associates is only exacerbating the problem.

Training positions are even more competitive. The Government has introduced a number of incentives to encourage applicants from overseas: exemptions from exams, guarantees on training and promises for British citizenship. Medical school places have been expanding without a parallel increase in training opportunities so bottlenecks would have happened anyway. In 2021 36% of new trainees were from medical schools outside the UK. In 2023 it was 41.5%. This trend is expected to be continuing, even accelerating.

A group of us have been on the higher education board since our DC were applying for medical school. They are now F2s spread across the country, working long hours for relatively little pay but enjoying the contribution they are making. None of them expect to get either a short term contract or a training position, so are applying to Australia or accepting that they will be reliant on zero hours NHS bank work covering staff absences.

As taxpayers we should be concerned that we are paying for medical schools, yet the NHS is not supporting their graduates into employment. We might also question why we are not giving priority to those already working in the NHS for the limited training slots. Doctors from elsewhere may be very good, but a significant proportion are then likely to leave to return home or to take up well paid private consultancy posts in either their home countries or in medical hubs like Dubai or Singapore.

Keir Starmer has said he will review sectors seeking labour from abroad to ensure that applications for the relevant visa routes, whether it’s the skilled worker route or the shortage occupation list will be balanced with expectations on training people here in our country. Wes Streeting seems to be refusing to answer questions on the topic. Whilst last week the BMA finally issued the following statement, albeit limited to training:
https://www.bma.org.uk/news-and-opinion/bma-statement-on-speciality-training-application-bottlenecks

Any action will be too late for our DC. When they applied for medicine they did not realise that it would mean having to leave the country. The hope has to be that a way is found for our impressive young people to be able to return.

Brilliant @PlopSofa . Is it OK if I take a look once People have commented on the revised AIBU draft. Probably tomorrow.

The main thing is that it is for people to adapt to prioritise their concerns or suit their style.

I need to speak to a couple of connected friends to see they have lobbying ideas or contacts. The more people who write and the more people who are written to, the better.

I think that reads very well. Maybe just a bit of clarification of what F1 and F2 are.

The global IMGs outside the UK have powerful UK based IMG lobbyists from countries of their origin who claim to be 'highly influential in NHS policy making' and central to the NHS Long Term Workforce Plan which may explain the resistance to date of any changes that may benefit our DCs.

Their recent conference entitled 'Rebuilding the NHS was focused on Collaborations to Rebuild the NHS, with a particular emphasis on collaborations between India and the UK' This explains the rapid expansion of IMG training centres for fast tracking into UK vacancies. DCs' voices remain unheard as these lobbyists are also powerful members of the BMA. They have created a 4 year course in which the first two years are spent working in India and next 2 years in the UK in NHS hospitals. As I understand it, at the end of 4 years, after passing MRCP and becoming registrars, they qualify for speciality training.

Apart from the diaspora boosting growth in their home country, I would be asking whether there is any monitoring of the actions and deals these lobbyists are making with the organisations overseas. Is there anyone ensuring that these measures are not disadvantaging UK medical graduates? As taxpayers and patients interested in the continued existence of the NHS and worried about wasteful expenditure within the NHS, we should be demanding greater scrutiny of these overseas deals. How exactly are these deal makers and the academies the lobbyists have set up benefitting? Are there additional financial gains for the lobbyists??

Given the amount of interest in pushing for the opportunities of global applicants, I am surprised the powers that be are tone deaf that our DCs are not being prioritised. Is that deliberate? If so, can someone let us know before we put our children through medical school here.

Ultimately it is important that a duty is owed to all UK young people, not just to young people from the lobbyists' home countries. Without investing in our young people and prioritising their education and employment opportunities, it will be difficult for the UK to achieve goals of economic growth. It's pretty evident, given the example in the thread, how other countries achieve their goals. The current recruitment system is perpetuating a failure to invest in young people who are currently in the UK. This is not only detrimental to their careers, finances and wellbeing but also ultimately a risk to social cohesion.

@Needmoresleep of course.

also the part about the type 2 visa needs to say it’s been “revised and relaxed” to make it easier for foreign doctors to apply, however the need for it has not been removed completely so that part is wrong.

@Needmoresleep will catch up with reading this thread later. Yes, please amend my text and adapt for AIBU as required.

I do worry that ultimately there is little concern for our DCs' plight. I am not sure we'll get anywhere with this. There is resistance. I feel powerful forces within the NHS are not taking the view that investing in UK based young people is central and vital for the NHS or necessary for UK growth. Their actions are boosting the economic growth of India instead of the UK. There is no protection for our DCs. The measures these lobbyists are taking are at odds with the needs of UK trained medical graduates. I appreciate there is a need for new IMGs but there needs to be a balance! There needs to be a correction!

As you probably already know, the success of Singapore is founded first and foremost in an investment in the education of its citizens and also a level of planning ahead for every eventuality. Planning ahead is something the UK seems to struggle with. Singapore is a multicultural society and very proud of it! It has strong safeguards to ensure social cohesion, including prioritising employment opportunities for Singapore Citizens and Permanent Residents.

I don't know how the BMA works but for the outside it does not appear to be a very healthy organisation. My assumption is that most doctors are too busy doctoring.

The gender debate has shown how small lobby groups can wield huge influence over organisations. I don't know about others, but DD was underwhelmed by her peers who seem to have got involved in the BMA, at University level and beyond, more as a career move than to support fellow students.

DD only had a day or two of strike action. Bizarrely strike days started after shifts began and if you were already in work you stayed. She herself said the priorities needed to be conditions and prospects over pay. My cynical view is that to some extent F1s and F2 were used by their more senior colleagues to lend weight to pay demands for those further up the career path. And that there does not seem to be the same enthusiasm to reciprocate by supporting their issues.

When I have explained the situation, people are shocked. It is crazy and cruel. My instinct is that if we are able to explain the situation clearly to as many people with public voices, someone will pick it up and run with it. It is an issue tailor made for a politician who wants to make a name for themselves.

The issue of IMGs already in the UK is interesting. The Reddit thread suggests that bank work is drying up. In DDs deanery there seem to be several who have been hanging round for a while, taking whatever turns ups. Some could be described at being at the weaker end of the staff spectrum. If DD does decide to stay and do bank work, she would expect she would get some priority. Colleagues know her, she works hard, and well.... she turns up on time and stays the shift. Indeed she would be far better than the locums I have seen in my two post Covid appointments at my own GP. In both cases the NHS website clearly said I needed a 2WW referral. No argument there, but not so easy if the locum cannot operate the practice's computer systems, or seemingly do much more than look up symptoms on the computer. The resulting chase to ensure tests got done and the referrals got done was, well, EPIC. I have no idea how less computer literate patients are faring.

Yes, we had a good medical industry. Patients would come to places like Great Ormond Street from all over the world, supported by a strong bio medical tech industry. Now we seem happy to export it to Dubai.

I have discussed with DD what she might do post Australia. Unless scope opens up for her to work as a Doctor she is assuming she will work as a bio-med engineer - she has a very strong intercalation. She thinks she can get a job without a Masters. If not we will have to pay. Interestingly she assumes future employment will be in the Republic of Ireland, which seems to be where it is at. At least it is not as far away as Australia.

I would not be surprised if some UK based doctors have financial stakes in recruitment and training in India and elsewhere. I know someone who is launching a business offering complete medical checks in Malaysia at a much lower price than in the UK. Less dodgy than Turkey, and a chance to combine with a holiday. I am tempted. (My own GP no longer even has a premises, but are perching in a couple of other practices. I think the NHS needs to be careful that as people no longer feel their health needs are covered, they abandon the system and reduce their support. The NHS needs to work for us, not for special interest groups.)

Singapore is astonishing. My first love is Malaysia but it has to be admired. A few years back I went to a talk by the then deputy Prime Minster about forward planning. .Amazing. We don't seem to understand who we are competing with.

@Needmoresleep Speaking of Singapore, I really fancy a plate of chicken rice, char kway teow or Katong laksa now. Chilli crab 🥰

Malaysia is lovely but the food in Singapore is the best!!

I think when phrasing the current issues facing UK medical graduates, it's vital that it isn't misconstrued as UK Medical graduates v UK IMGs. It's a call to redress the balance! A call for a correction! Prioritising UK based medics before importing any more people who are surplus to requirements.

Sidehustles of lobbyists who happen to be UKIMGs should be stopped by politicians as they are not in the interests of upskilling and educating the young people here and are potentially a waste of NHS money. There's possibly a conflict of interests issue here if they are involved in NHS policy making.

A few thoughts:

I love Singapore. What a place!

With regards to healthcare and long term vision I can’t see myself staying in this country once the children have finished university.

I am encouraging them both to learn a European language so we may be able to make to Europe long-term as we have the option to do so with European passports.

Having seen the state of care in the elderly, how my mother was treated, I would not want my last few years to be in this country.

My plan for now is to retire somewhere in Europe. The NHS is completely screwed it seems, especially for the elderly, so I agree about people with the option to pay and go elsewhere doing just that. Millionaires are leaving this country at the fastest rate ever. I’ve said it time and time again on these MN boards - we’ve had decades of bad leadership by people who simply don’t care. There are so many problems. The country is in such a bad state and none of them want to grasp the nettle.

Anyway, going off track but it’s part of the wider debate, seeing people literally choosing with their feet. Healthcare is so important.

Malaysia is cool too. Beautiful country, loved it too. But yes best food in Singapore!