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Higher education

Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

Ideal university for Medicine

634 replies

Kayt79 · 30/10/2024 18:40

DS is in Y12, and set on Medicine. He's been to a few open days already, but until he's done his UCAT next summer it's impossible to know where will be realistic to apply.

So, just out of interest, and putting aside entry requirements and "prestige", which would be your ideal universities for Medicine, based on the overall student experience?

OP posts:
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Needmoresleep · 10/11/2024 10:54

@Saschka

Thank you.

The problem seems to be post F2.

F2 is brutal. DD is working with very sick patients. Her medium sized town hospital is full. 40 on trolleys even before the bad weather is hit so every ward is full. They suffer endemic staff shortages. Her Trust does not have a single consultant in a major speciality. The F2 shift pattern is tough and set in advance. In her case it has meant being full on, with lots of nights then her allocated 2 weeks vacation at the end of the four month placement - at a time when none of her friends are free to go on holiday. She came off nights on Monday and then had 13 hour longs on Wednesday and Thursday. This weekend she is doing little bar catch on sleep, training (required but no time allocated during working hours), admin and hopefully some leisure and social life, before starting again on Monday. Studying for the next set of exams is completely off the cards.

What next? The NHS does not have an obvious career path. As you say your Trust does not use the terms F3/F4 as these posts are also aimed at overseas trained experienced Doctors wanting NHS experience. More worryingly to get a training place place she needs to be able to compete with the very best in the world, and land a strong MSRA result. Her achievements to date, which include some impressive extra-curricular, good feedback on placements, and a strong intercalation (bio-medical engineering at Imperial) will count for nothing.

She is dyslexic, with slow processing speeds, albeit with compensating strengths. This has already meant that despite strong A level predictions her poor UCAT meant she was very limited in which medical schools she could apply to. She enjoys medicine and appears to be good at it, but the move away from merit towards "equality", as well as the opening up of opportunities to worldwide competition, and the likely need to move again both for an F3 post and then again for a training post makes the future seem bleak. She faces two years of work/study during F3/F4 and then a further 7 years of work/study on a training pathway. Even if she makes it, she would be mid 30s before being able to settle down.

My observation was that her batch of new F1s were hit like a train when they realised that getting into and through medical school was only the start. It was only going to get harder and more competitive, and that the fabled job security in medicine was a myth. In one of her placement groups, all but one were planning to leave for Australia. Australia wants them, the NHS, for all the talk of a doctor shortage, appears not to care. DD is relatively lucky as she spent her elective in a research lab, who have said they would welcome a PhD application from her. Better than driving an Uber, and for me better than her moving half way across the world.

The deep down problem is this move away from merit. Surely the NHS wants staff who will do that bit extra, who stay on an extra 15 minutes to both deal with a crisis or carry out a proper handover. Instead they seem to want those who treat them as they treat their staff, who understand that their priority is to jump the hurdles the NHS set and focus on exam prep over support for colleagues and patients.

mumsneedwine · 10/11/2024 11:35

@Needmoresleep so well said. My DD loves being a doctor, feedback has been amazing, ARCCP (?) panel commended her after F1 (no idea if this is normal). She wants to work in the NHS (even with the 78 hour weeks and lack of choice in time off), but she has rent to pay and can't afford not to be employed. F3 locum too unstable, so needs a contracted role. I'm just hoping the MSRA goes well as otherwise the options are not good.

Although maybe a JCF job in London in IMT might be an option 😊. Her first job as an F1, first 3 days, was on call in AMU. Even the consultants thought that was mean.

PAs seem to be becoming less popular although they have been in the SHO rota at one hospital v near me. 🤬

sendsummer · 10/11/2024 13:44

She came off nights on Monday and then had 13 hour longs on Wednesday and Thursday. This weekend she is doing little bar catch on sleep, training (required but no time allocated during working hours), admin and hopefully some leisure and social life, before starting again on Monday. Studying for the next set of exams is completely off the cards.
Without being unsympathetic, choices have to be made between recovery / leisure including holidays and studying to advance with professional exams. Looking at that rota, she had at least part of Tuesday and Friday to catch up on training with admin and the weekend to study. A non training F3 / F4 rota may not be any easier.

ThatllBeTheDay · 10/11/2024 14:17

I have three DC doing rotas and I honestly wouldn't be able to pick out of the three who has it worst. The nights seem to be universally challenging. DS1 (currently on the four year stretch ahead of being able to apply for consultant posts) has four night shifts on the trot right over the Christmas break. I have no idea how they do it - I couldn't.

mumsneedwine · 10/11/2024 14:57

Mine just did 4 nights with one day off then 4 13 hour on calls. One day off. Then 5 days of 'normal' days. Not much time to do anything other than do washing, eat and sleep. She's working Xmas again too.

Today she will sleep I imagine.

Needmoresleep · 10/11/2024 15:45

sendsummer · 10/11/2024 13:44

She came off nights on Monday and then had 13 hour longs on Wednesday and Thursday. This weekend she is doing little bar catch on sleep, training (required but no time allocated during working hours), admin and hopefully some leisure and social life, before starting again on Monday. Studying for the next set of exams is completely off the cards.
Without being unsympathetic, choices have to be made between recovery / leisure including holidays and studying to advance with professional exams. Looking at that rota, she had at least part of Tuesday and Friday to catch up on training with admin and the weekend to study. A non training F3 / F4 rota may not be any easier.

I don't agree. If DD were absolutely single minded perhaps perhaps she should spend her weekend studying, but I am not about to start questioning her.

Nights were probably 5 days. She finished on a Monday morning. Then Wednesday she will be up and out before 7 (40 minutes minute minimum commute as she is currently in a smaller hospital) to return at 10pm having spend 13 busy hours on a busy busy ward, with a repeat on Thursday. . (Particularly rough as on Thursday they cut off life support to a young man whose family were understandably distraught.) Friday was recovery. Saturday was the required training for her current placement and Sunday off. Yes she had the chance to spend it studying for the next stage, but really. Does the NHS really want only those who are prepared to give up everything, or can they see a place for robust hard working staff who rarely have a weekend day off, but if they do want to spend a day hanging out, playing sport or seeing friends.

This is an unpopular deanery where contractual terms are significantly worse that those that apply in England, and yet where F1s are now being send even if they have top performance at well regarded medical schools and it being their last choice. Don't forget either this is the Covid generation. At medical school DD finally found her tribe at the start of the second year. Midway though the third they were sent home. She spent her whole intercalation at in her childhood bedroom (one reason why she did so well) only to return to medical school with finals at the end of her fourth year. Her friendship group, who had spent lockdown together and who were scattered across the West Country on different placements, had effectively forgotten to include her in on things. DD loved her F1 and the new friends she made. You would have thought that the NHS would understand the impact Covid made. DD is already working close to 80 hours a week. I do not blame her for grabbing every minute she can to be a young person. Achieving a work life balance is crucial for resilience and career longevity.

No doubt the NHS will pick up someone from overseas for that sought after training place, perhaps ignoring that that person might not have been trying to prepare alongside a busy busy job. Or someone from the UK who has been very focussed on selecting 9-5 placements. (DD's friend is in a deanery where F1/F2s don't have nights and also has a couple of 9-5 community/GP rotations as well as hospital placements.)

Again it is all about what the NHS wants. I think they should want my bright, committed and talented DD. She is a very very good doctor. But, as Sendsummer's post suggests, being willing to work long long weeks, and accepting moving across the country every couple of years for perhaps the next decade is not enough. They need to be willing to sacrifice more.

Interestingly the NHS do not allow doctors to apply for Physician Association jobs. These would be perfect. More money, less responsibility and no nights. Lots of time to study for exams. But no. Those that fall short of their complete commitment are sent to the colonies like convicts.

mumsneedwine · 10/11/2024 18:48

This. Majority of these applicants are from abroad, many from red list countries.

Ideal university for Medicine
mumsneedwine · 10/11/2024 18:50

How did this happen ?

Ideal university for Medicine
ThatllBeTheDay · 10/11/2024 20:49

Your DD's deanery does sound particularly challenging Needmoresleep. DS1 in London did no nights as an F1, for example.

mumsneedwine I can't see the graphs you posted. Could you try again, or maybe explain what they illustrate?

mumsneedwine · 10/11/2024 21:08

@ThatllBeTheDay no nights at all ? Mine did loads - F1 in a different deanery to needsmore. Only rotation she didn't was A&E but she worked shifts until 2am (seemed weird to me). Did her first nights 2nd week after starting.

This rotation she's doing 1 in 4 weeks on nights. Means pay is better than basic ! Her friends have mostly had the same. In all sorts of deaneries.

Is this better ? Shows how competition has reached ridiculous levels in the last few years.

Ideal university for Medicine
ThatllBeTheDay · 10/11/2024 21:17

2am?! Horrendous. No, no nights at all for F1. They started at F2.

ThatllBeTheDay · 10/11/2024 21:21

He also hasn't been shipped around geographically because he's never put down any option other than London, done in the knowledge that if he didn't get placed in London then he'd have trodden water with a one year non training post had it come to it. So I guess there are options to be a bit more stable if one's prepared for things to take a bit longer if push comes to shove.

mumsneedwine · 10/11/2024 21:34

@ThatllBeTheDay mine can't afford to live in London

ThatllBeTheDay · 10/11/2024 21:35

mumsneedwine my DS has never asked me for a penny of subsidy. He lives off his earnings. Not in MiC style, but he manages to pay his rent, eat, go on holiday etc.

ThatllBeTheDay · 10/11/2024 21:39

Few of his friends are trust fund kids. I'm not clear what you mean by not being able to afford to live in London. Maybe the rented flat won't be so flash but you know, plenty manage on just their F1 salary and things improve each year.

mumsneedwine · 10/11/2024 21:40

It's hard to stay in one place if there are no jobs there. 18 months ago locum market meant an F3 could pay, but now it's so unreliable anyone who has no family back up can't do it. And eat with a roof over their head.

mumsneedwine · 10/11/2024 21:44

@ThatllBeTheDay can I ask how - really am interested ?

Take home of £2,500 a month with rents of £1,800 for a share in zone 3. Car insurance £60, gas etc £150, commuting £100, food £250. Bit of a quick budget but leaves £100ish a month for holidays, recreation, GMC/BMA/indemnity. Car break down and you're stuffed. No chance of saving !

Do yours live a long way out ? I've looked for cheaper places but they seem so far out it makes commuting pricey.

mumsneedwine · 10/11/2024 21:45

Suppose don't need a car in London. That round help

ThatllBeTheDay · 10/11/2024 21:45

Yes he hasn't had to do locum though. The F1, F2 etc salary has been sufficient to pay his rent and essentials and indeed for a reasonable social life and holidays with no savings or parental sub. If he can do it, anyone can. London isn't exclusive to any junior doctor on financial grounds, they may not be able to buy a house or whatever but it's do-able for sure.

mumsneedwine · 10/11/2024 21:54

@ThatllBeTheDay I'm impressed. Does he live outside zone 2 ? Rents are so high it seems to take half your salary at best. They've gone up so much in the last 18 months. Is he an F2 now ? He's done so well to manage on an F1 salary the last 12 months. Mine wasn't even been able to have the heating on last winter. 🙁. They lost so much money from striking she had to do locums to stay afloat.

ThatllBeTheDay · 10/11/2024 21:57

mumsneedwine I've never actually asked him to tell me what he earns net, until tonight in fact (he was delighted to say he was about to get a big increase due to the pay settlement after the strikes). He lives in East London but fairly central (Zone 2). He also bought himself a (very small) car two or three years ago but it died in September and he hasn't replaced. The car wasn't for commuting, just a nice thing to have to get out of London, drive home etc. All I really know is that he's never had a sub from me at all and has never complained. His flats haven't been glam, but he's been perfectly content sharing with friends. Perhaps he just has low standards. He's not been short on holidays either and this year went to the Far East, France and Italy. I'm not convinced about London being off limits due to financial constraints.

ThatllBeTheDay · 10/11/2024 22:00

No he's not F2, he's been in London since F1 and he's now on the specialty registrar pathway but the fact remains: he's had no income supplement from me (or indeed ever asked for it) through F1, F2 or subsequent training posts. Not flush but not in penury either.

mumsneedwine · 10/11/2024 22:03

@ThatllBeTheDay he's done so well. But I am guessing he's not F2 and is now a few years into speciality training ? So when he was on a foundation salary, rents were relatively cheaper. This year, with energy price increases as well, it's pretty tough to afford a place on an F1 salary. After pension and student loan deductions they take home less than £2,200. With no nights it's not going to go up a lot.

I imagine 5 years ago it was possible. It's just so tough now. My DD never wants to live in London so not important for her, but I have many ex students who'd love to come home (I work in London).

mumsneedwine · 10/11/2024 22:04

@ThatllBeTheDay sorry, crossed posts.

Let's hope their pay continues to increase to a level where all doctors are paid their worth.

ThatllBeTheDay · 10/11/2024 22:09

Oh actually he went to a Greek island too.

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