Ideal university for Medicine

[Kayt79]

DS is in Y12, and set on Medicine. He's been to a few open days already, but until he's done his UCAT next summer it's impossible to know where will be realistic to apply.

So, just out of interest, and putting aside entry requirements and "prestige", which would be your ideal universities for Medicine, based on the overall student experience?

@mumsneedwine I don't think they can be a doctor from what they have written. Or at least not a still practicing one.

No it wasn't. I have told them to ask me things they are uncertain about as it will go no further so they don't get a bollocking from their reg or consultant. Unfortunately I get more questions now than previously.

Mumsneedwine, F1/F2 allocations used to be based on points, which to some extent was based on merit/achievement.

Overnight allocation became random. I can see problems. DD, the last year of the points system, chose an unpopular deanery. (After lockdown she wanted something completely different, and loves it.) She had quite a lot of points so got the placements she wanted. (I think there were about 150 different permutations, and she got her second choice.) Other people she knew in the past who went to this deanery, went because they had very few points, and ended up with quite a different set of rotations.

I assume people supervising in different hospitals/wards, got used to what a new intake would be capable of. DD has been surprised at how much responsibility she has been given, but equally the pace is brutal. Only one of six rotations does not involve nights, often with very sick patients.

Now everything is mixed up. DD was contacted by a couple of would be F1s, she knew via friends of friends, who were rather shocked to discover they were headed for their bottom choice Deanery. One, in the top 10% of her Oxbridge year, would normally have expected to have a choice of London teaching hospital jobs. Instead her first year is somewhere very rural and a long way from friends and family. She is apparently enjoying it, but a process that can randomly land you anywhere in the UK is rough. (Previously people with few points would have little choice, but would have known this so could have chosen their least worst option, perhaps somewhere where they had friends or relatives.)

It is unfair, not least because different parts of the UK are on different contracts, so some F1s will be randomly allocated to lower pay and/or longer hours and/or less good conditions. (I think in some deaneries F1s do no nights at all.)

I thought I had heard that there is yet another rethink of the allocation process for the upcoming year, which would not surprise me, but maybe not.

One issue for DD is that her rota does not allow much, actually any, time for study, whilst contemporaries are boasting of having already passed key exams. She will need to find an "F3" position with more regular hours, but these are becoming increasingly scarce. (Physician Associates now often do this type of regular hours work.)

In any cohort in any profession some will be stronger and others weaker. Stuffing people randomly into jobs may be seen as a move towards equality, but it is not equity. And not ensuring that people supervising are aware that the new intake might be more of a mixed bag with some needing more support, would be silly.

My goddaughter went to Derriford in Cornwall. She has just graduated as an Anaethtist in Australia .The actual medical school is just a stepping stone.

All medical degrees are equal.Some F1s look great on paper but that doesn't guarantee they will be the best on the job.Some are just better at the academics and are not so great on the wards. Twas ever thus.

@HighStars not a doctor. A teacher who supports students to become doctors. So unfortunately know the stupidity of the application processes very well. Also the mother of one so know the issues around unemployment.

I've met some rubbish consultants in my time so I do take exception to anyone talking others down. There are good and less good people in all professions but you don't trash a whole generation because of that.

There are no good/bad Medical schools. You'll be a doctor from all of them. And recruitment is blind.

@Needmoresleep I don't like the new system at all. Not sure anyone does. Really felt for the brilliant students who still don't know where they'll be for F2 next August.

More medical school spaces being given. But not enough jobs for them once graduated. And not enough jobs for the F2s finishing. Utterly bonkers system.

@fiftiesmum and sorry, but I think you have a consultant/reg problem not an F1 one. No one should be bollocking anyone for doing their best in a new job. They are paid to teach them, not belittle.

Yes some of the high flyers may not make great doctors, though I would argue that the way medical students are examined, including lots of OSCIs/role playing is designed to help with that.

However all medical students will know peers who bumped along the bottom, and who they had to support through placements. As F1s (and not all made it) they will still need support. Some will then be fine, whilst others will find F1 far harder than medical school and a bridge too far. It won't all relate to points. One F1 from overseas needed a couple of months before he could understand the very strong accent in a very deprived area, after which he was fine. Another was a perfectionist and generated their own stress. However there will be a correlation between good or solid performance in medical school and performance as an F1.

Teachers and other professions will be no difference. Someone who struggles at teacher training college, perhaps repeating a year, will be a teacher, but perhaps not immediately ready for a demanding post in a challenging inner city school. Random allocation for F1 positions will mean that some F1s, who need more support, will find themselves in an equivalent position. In many places the NHS is only just holding together and F1s are part of the sticking plaster. Some sort of merit based system, which helps hospitals to adjust rotations to the likely capacity of the F1s they will get, seems basic. Randomly allocating one of the weaker members of the cohort in one of the more demanding placements is not fair on anyone.

Very hard to assess as an eighteen year old but it's maybe not a bad idea to think ahead to what you want of of a medical career and what step on the ladder you think you might be capable of. Very hard indeed tbh. There are a lot of medical students who are road blocked at the moment. I've no idea if the 'right' students are the ones who are breaking through the barriers after F2 and at subsequent stages but just as the majority in any law firm won't progress to being a partner, so too only a minority become consultants (a dwindling minority?). It certainly seems tough out there right now. Perhaps there are too many entering medical school who assume the natural progression will lead them to consultancy but that's unrealistic. Arguably there are certain unis where you have a greater chance at converting to other related and well remunerated careers if the system blocks you from progressing. It's an expensive degree to embark on if you feel you might not get to the top of the tree or don't like the idea of 'settling', for want of a better word.

I'm not clear what the numbers are in terms of how many are getting through the various stages. Others on these threads are better informed on current stats.

@ThatllBeTheDay most would just like to progress to a job after F2. Any job would be nice. Nothing to do with competency unfortunately.

@Kayt79 I have taught a lot of medics over the years and I would honestly say, the one he will be happiest at. Take to as many open days as possible and have a good look around. It is a tough course once you are on it, the students that successfully make it through are the ones who can balance this with all the other aspects of leaving home for the first time, getting a good group of friends around them and like where they are living. The rest is much of a muchness in the gran scheme/long term view of things.

Do you know the current stats for the various stages mumsneedwine?

Possibly naive of me but surely competency is assessed relatively accurately for whish students progress beyond F2? I don't know what's involved but it would be a seriously mad world if names were picked out of a hat with no more than that to it.

*which

Interesting thread. I have a dd who is set on becoming a doctor, though she's a while off A-level choices and so this very well might change! Can I ask a few questions -

• The location/university med students study in remains the same for the full six years? There's no option to transfer after a certain stage of the course?
• We live in London, so my dd could have the option to live in halls at one of the London unis and then live at home for the rest of her degree (or some of it). I'm a big believer in living away for uni (I have two older ones), but medical degrees seem like a very different beast in terms of workload and I imagine home comforts (not to mention easing financial strain a little) could be appreciated.
• Any thoughts about the medicine apprenticeships? I know the first cohort went in this year...

I think that's exactly what I'm wondering - where he'll be happiest. An enjoyable university experience in a city he'll love, with good teaching and support, and good work-life balance (as far as that's possible in Medicine!)

Obviously some of this is subjective and depends on the individual, but I imagine there must be some Medicine courses where students are happier than others. Certainly pre-clinical teaching styles and hours seem to vary a lot, as do clinical placements.

I think you’re right @Kayt79 and encouraging them to pick somewhere based off where they think they will happiest is key. My DD is at Leicester and is so happy - she knew she would be but it’s been even better than she hoped - just the right place for her. But she has gotten no end of snobby comments about it (which she thankfully can laugh off)

I was just looking at various Medicine league tables and Leicester ranks 2nd for satisfaction with teaching and satisfaction with feedback (Guardian) and top for student satisfaction (Complete University Guide).

I'm glad your daughter's enjoying it 🙂

@ThatllBeTheDay I'll try and dig out the Foundation ones. It's harder for speciality training but the ratios are quite terrifying. GPs qualifying this year are driving Ubers or working in Tesco as no jobs.

"@ThatllBeTheDay competency not really assessed at all. For speciality training you just need to complete foundation years. And then do well on the MSRA test. Which is useless at choosing the 'best' doctor (it chooses the best at taking exams).

Take Obs and Gynae. People chosen via the exam only, an exam that contains NO Obs and Gynae knowledge 🤷‍♀️.

For some others you need points from things like conferences and posters. Things that cost money and time (which most F1/2s don't have).

The worst is being flung around the country every few years. Away from your friends and families, partners and home.

PS my daughter loves her job. And has never been bollocked by a consultant or registrar.

Saw this a while back and kept it - it’s from Reddit I think, so can’t vouch for veracity, but it looks to be consistent with what has been shared. I think the change allowing IMGs to compete at the same level as UK grads happened around 2019? Which would explain the curves but I don’t know any of the background on it

medical.hee.nhs.uk/medical-training-recruitment/medical-specialty-training/competition-ratios/2024-competition-ratios

Sadly pretty accurate

Does each person apply for just one specialty though or multiple specialities? If the latter, then it might not be as bad as it looks.