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Higher education

Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

Ideal university for Medicine

634 replies

Kayt79 · 30/10/2024 18:40

DS is in Y12, and set on Medicine. He's been to a few open days already, but until he's done his UCAT next summer it's impossible to know where will be realistic to apply.

So, just out of interest, and putting aside entry requirements and "prestige", which would be your ideal universities for Medicine, based on the overall student experience?

OP posts:
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PlopSofa · 10/11/2024 22:09

This thread has made for very sobering reading.

If you want to make it as a doctor these days it looks TOUGH.

The moving around, the lack of jobs and competition for those that are available, the intense work schedule, the exams, the bureaucracy and the instability for many years…

DD is in year 12 and has been contemplating medicine but reading this I don’t think she’s cut out for it.

Shes high functioning ASD ADD slow processing and studying maths, chem, biology. My dad was a doctor so I know how tough it can be.

As PP said, the move away from merit is devastating. He was recently in hospital and a handover meant he was likely to have a developed a lung infection after major heart surgery, triple bypass, torn valve. He knew this because he knew the symptoms and asked for an x-ray at 9pm only to be told she, the doctor was going off shift and that it would be done tomorrow. My dad said well by then it will have developed, if you sorted it out now, I may not need to get that ill. She shrugged and said someone would pick up with him tomorrow at 8am.

Anyway, back to DD, she shouldn’t do it should she? You need real passion and commitment for this path. I don’t think she’ll cope. A desk job for DD. It looks too much like a rollercoaster.

ThatllBeTheDay · 10/11/2024 22:11

I don't understand any move away from merit. It makes no sense.

Roryno · 10/11/2024 22:18

Tattletail · 01/11/2024 13:10

I think it would be good to look at what local hospitals would be connected to each university for placements etc. Hospitals which are "good" at their core is what is going to make him into a good doctor and instill him with the right values. The rest is just textbook.

I agree.
My son is in his final year at St George’s and has experienced a really good range of medicine in his placements.

He’s doing a post degree entry 4 year course - he didn’t get in anywhere when he applied as an undergrad, despite having fabulous A levels and good work experience.

Disgruntledr · 10/11/2024 22:23

@mumsneedwine I think it’s still perfectly possible to live in London as an F1, as long as you’re prepared to accept a smaller flat or flat share. Travel is generally cheaper than elsewhere in the country and the deaneries are a bit smaller so you’re more likely to be placed closer to where you’re living.

I’d say it potentially becomes more of an issue later on. For a two-doctor couple who have children whilst still going through registrar rotations, it is very challenging. Especially when you factor in the likely pay cut during years of research (mainly necessary during SpR years in order to apply for a consultant post).

I’d urge younger students and trainees to think early on about other potential priorities such as family, and factor that into career planning, unless they have significant family support via money or time.

mumsneedwine · 10/11/2024 22:29

@PlopSofa it's tough, but DD loves it 🤷‍♀️

ThatllBeTheDay · 10/11/2024 22:33

PlopSofa a lot of jobs are tough. Things generally do seem tougher than they were when I was the age my DC are now. I'm not sure that being a medic is much tougher than plenty of other jobs though, overall.

ThatllBeTheDay · 10/11/2024 22:36

(Working through the pandemic in London hospitals was supremely tough, but not a usual circumstance).

Crispynoodle · 10/11/2024 22:41

Queens in Belfast. Northern Ireland is a fabulous place to study

mumsneedwine · 10/11/2024 22:41

@Disgruntledr my DD made that decision. She was lucky as was the year before the lottery came in, so got her first choice (through merit !). Priorities were beach, space and quality of life. It's made for a fantastic 15 months so far. Had some amazing teaching in all rotations. Met some lovely friends and will probably stay there forever now.

Other friends chose to live nearer home or stay near the Uni. No one voluntarily moved into the S East ! I'm a Londoner born and bred but it's a pricey place to live these days. Yes you can get something on £30,000 a year, but many landlords now want 2 months rent up front, and lots don't have it.

Anyhow, feel I've detailed this thread moaning about my home city. I teach in a very deprived part of it so don't always see it at its best.

Disgruntledr · 10/11/2024 22:48

@mumsneedwine Thats great! It sounds like she made a sensible choice, and the relative toughness of the rota now will likely stand her in good stead (clinically, even if not “on paper”) in the years ahead.

ThatllBeTheDay · 10/11/2024 22:49

My DC have paid a month or one and a half months rent so £800/ £900 to £1200/ £1350 at this year's prices. But then they they recoup the deposit from the previous rental so maybe a small period of overdraft but that's it. Basically a single sum moved around for as long as they need to rent.

ThatllBeTheDay · 10/11/2024 22:53

I guess where the majority of graduates coming out of the clinical years opt for as their first choice depends on uni then. At DS1's uni the overwhelming majority were hoping for London. Very few seemed to want to go elsewhere. Most of their friends from undergrad were in London so that played its part.

Needmoresleep · 10/11/2024 23:06

Mumsneedwine, I am a Landlord who rents to professional sharers, and have properties in nice parts of Zone 2. £800 per person PCM. One property is just down the road from a hospital. Even Zone 1, and quite a prestigious block is £1,400 pcm each for two investment bankers. Plenty of DDs friends went to work in London. After Bristol it was not a great shock. DDs experience is that though pay per hour is not great, the hours are such that she earns plenty - and would earn even more had she returned to London.

What is really unfair is to allocate F1s randomly, when the contracts in each deanery vary so much. It would be far easier to study if your sleep patterns were not all over the place.

Mamabearsmile · 10/11/2024 23:06

What kind of course does he want? Modern courses are developing everywhere now. Look at peninsula medicine and dentistry which is Exeter or St George's in London as examples. Worry less about prestige and more about his happiness. It really matters when you have to do something for half a decade. Also the area is important as he'll be based there for work and living for a long period. Our experience as a family is Newcastle, Leeds, Exeter. All good centres and regional excellence in many areas. On your open days ask the students what they think of the area and study styles, how big are the tutor groups? how near are the halls?etc. I wish him all the luck in the world with it and every success.

Mamabearsmile · 10/11/2024 23:17

You joking?

sendsummer · 11/11/2024 08:53

@Needmoresleep
DD is already working close to 80 hours a week.
Your DD certainly has a tough rota by current standards and it will be even worst when she has to cover unpredictable sick leave but she is not working consistently 70 to 80 hours per week, certainly not the week you give as an example. On the upside she will also have amassed much more experience than those rotations where F1s don’t do nights.

Almost all junior doctors are bright and hardworking, fortunately for the greater public who relies on them. Leisure and rest for them becomes an even scarcer commodity at the stage of having a young family and having to juggle study for speciality exams. Medical school degrees may be equal but there is still a range of abilities, ambitions and life choices amongst the pool of junior doctors. All of them contribute as doctors though with amassed knowledge through experience whatever their eventual position is.

ThatllBeTheDay · 11/11/2024 09:27

Her Trust does not have a single consultant in a major speciality

I found this striking. How can that be the case? Why would there be none? Won't that affect the training of the junior doctors below?

ThatllBeTheDay · 11/11/2024 09:42

Our experience as a family is Newcastle, Leeds, Exeter

I'm going to have to be vague so as not to be accused of slander. But our family's experience over a period of forty years is in one of those areas. Fairly recently we had the diagnosis of a particular cancer and the clinical fellows we had to deal with were of shockingly poor quality. The consultant who took over the case was a genuinely lovely person but appeared very weak and in charge in name only. The ward sister who had to perform a certain procedure was not complimentary about the quality of the doctors they had to work with. I would run a mile rather than go back to that (major) hospital for treatment. Certainly the word on the street locally was that the quality of care was patchy at best across the various specialties. This is a place much lauded on MN for medical school applications.

Needmoresleep · 11/11/2024 11:45

My point was about the fact, and yes it is a fact, that across the UK different Trusts use different contracts. This means different hours, shift patterns and pay.

It also means different opportunities to study for the next stage. It can be assumed that not having to undertake night shifts makes study a lot easier.

You are almost certainly right that a busy F1/F2 gives plenty of opportunity for experience. However acceptance for specialist training is not based on experience but on exams. The (worldwide) competition is such that rather than stay that extra 15 minutes to ensure that the crisis is dealt with, an F1/F2 benefits from watching the clock and rushing back to open the books.

It can be done. DS knows an overseas medic who took his F1/F2 in the same deanery and, in part because this is what he was there for, very much limited his life to work, eat, sleep and study. He now has a prestigious training position with a top London hospital. One of the people DD knows who was randomly allocated the deanery when their points should have guaranteed them a top choice of London placements, has opted to live in hospital accommodation in a small town even though most choose to commute from a nearby city. I assume they too have decided to give absolute focus to the next stage and passing those exams.

However the NHS is asking a lot for a group whose University careers were strongly impacted by Covid. DD loves her work and is willing to go that extra mile. Equally she knows that she functions best if she can maintain a good work life balance. She has dug deep, is playing competitive team sport and has a good group of friends, mainly non-medic, so has some understanding of local patients and their attitudes. It might well make her a better doctor. But these are not the qualities the NHS prioritises.

DDs last week was not meant to be an illustration of long hours, just of the irregularity. At one point she had ten days on the trot including several longs. And yes staff shortages and having to cover are frequent. In her first F1 placement they lost over 10% of their numbers quite quickly. And on one night, no Registrar turned up and a busy hospital in a very deprived areas was staffed overnight by one F2 and two newish F1s. (They were given numbers to call - luckily there were no major crises.)

It is easy to say that F1/F2s could do more. It is pretty obvious though, that most are doing enough. And indeed that the ability to set boundaries and look after yourself is probably a key skill over a long career. Perhaps the NHS should instead be looking at their own approach. Are they worried about the fact that so many feel they have no alternative but to look overseas? Does the NHS really think that they themselves do better by giving equal consideration to those from overseas, even though they might not have had to go through the demands of a busy F1/F2?

mumsneedwine · 25/11/2024 17:15

@Saschka have you seen what's happened with IMT today ? F2s been rejected with scores of 14. So unless they've found the time and money to have a paper published, presented at a conference etc. they have not even got an interview. These are fantastic doctors being turned away from one of the least popular specialities - what on earth is going to happen this year ! How many unemployed doctors are we going to have who graduated last year with such high hopes of a job in the NHS.

Lots of IMGs getting interviews though. Not working in the NHS doing insane hours makes it easier to jump through those hoops. Make it make sense 🙁

ThatllBeTheDay · 25/11/2024 18:12

mumsneedwine do you know where I can read about this? Is there anything in print?

mumsneedwine · 25/11/2024 18:29

@ThatllBeTheDay

https://www.reddit.com/r/doctorsUK/comments/1gzh8yi/imtapplicationnwithdrawnbyyoriel/

Have had it confirmed by ex students. They've been sent an email to confirm it's real.

Saschka · 26/11/2024 08:24

mumsneedwine · 25/11/2024 17:15

@Saschka have you seen what's happened with IMT today ? F2s been rejected with scores of 14. So unless they've found the time and money to have a paper published, presented at a conference etc. they have not even got an interview. These are fantastic doctors being turned away from one of the least popular specialities - what on earth is going to happen this year ! How many unemployed doctors are we going to have who graduated last year with such high hopes of a job in the NHS.

Lots of IMGs getting interviews though. Not working in the NHS doing insane hours makes it easier to jump through those hoops. Make it make sense 🙁

If that’s accurate (and I’m not deeply involved in the backend of IMT recruitment, I just do the evidence verification and interviewing) then I agree that is troubling.

ThatllBeTheDay · 26/11/2024 09:22

I'm not for a word doubting what what you say mumsneedwine but on one small point I do wonder how these F2s know about the many internationals who are getting interviews in this round (which has only just closed I think) since you say that those same internationals aren't their colleagues/ aren't working in the NHS?

Completely agree that F2's with very high scores should at least get an interview - the system seems bizarre.

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