Ideal university for Medicine

[Kayt79]

DS is in Y12, and set on Medicine. He's been to a few open days already, but until he's done his UCAT next summer it's impossible to know where will be realistic to apply.

So, just out of interest, and putting aside entry requirements and "prestige", which would be your ideal universities for Medicine, based on the overall student experience?

Unfortunately I agree with your last statement that medical school places need to be reduced with things as they stand. The bottle neck is insufficient GP and consultant expansion.

“very few getting numbers for more competitive specialities”

@sendsummer i don’t understand that, please could you explain that to me.

Are you saying that IMGs are not so successful in gaining F3 positions in more competitive specialties? And that these are more likely to be positions in London teaching hospitals and Home Counties?

Why are relative success rates between Deaneries important

Arguably - as I've said a few times now - because in certain deaneries (if it's correct that some have markedly more success than others) then some F2s will be more optimistic and others less so and the consequences of that may well make a difference in their general mood and therefore their own forward planning for the following year.

I am not sure if I understand the post.

Four or five mums with DC in different deaneries are reporting that their DC, and their peers, are sufficiently discouraged by both the numbers and the selection criteria that they are making fairly limited attempts to achieve training or a F3 post in the UK and assuming that emigration will be the most viable option.

It is not for us to dig out deanery stats. The NHS must have people doing workforce planning.

We are raising an issue. As you said, our DC won't appear on stats because they are not applying for (many) jobs here. The real risk is that this leads to planners to think they need to provide even more support, exemptions and training guarantees to overseas doctors to make up the increased short fall. Whereas they would save a lot of money, heartache, and help the long-term future of the NHS by supporting our own F2s into F3 positions.

It has always been that a good proportion won't get training posts straight out of F2, and that a year or two at F3 is often needed to build the CV and to study for the exams. I completely accept that some excellent overseas doctors will come to the UK, and equally some of the overseas doctors will be very qualified with bags more experience than current F2s. But is this what you or the NHS want.

What would you advise F2s in our DCs position to do.

Do you know anyone in NHS policy we might write to?

DD will soon start a sought after and demanding placement. Fabulous experience, but one where she will need to focus all her energy.

@AsTearsGoBy would you read this thread on Reddit?

https://www.reddit.com/r/doctorsUK/comments/17m0gy7/f3_is_dead/

I know you said you didn’t put much store by Reddit posts but from what I can see, these are very real people, real
doctors currently in the system talking about the problems they are facing or have faced. They use all the language and acronyms you’d expect of doctors discussing pay, job levels and training so I feel they are real people, not made up.

It’s not just a few people on MN feeling anxious.

If you read more posts on Reddit it’s becomes more clear what is going on. There are no locations mentioned so we can’t make a judgment about competition differing according to kind of hospital applied to in a certain region/area but the overall feeling from all posters is one of fear. Work is drying up.

You would need to click on “view more comments” a red button to read the full thread. It’s really interesting.

A lot of this seems to be about budgets of hospitals and them cutting back, as well.

@PlopSofa concerning “very few getting numbers for more competitive specialities” I was referring to training posts in 2023 link as in my previous post copied below
Here is a link to the country of qualification breakdown for 2023 speciality training. The relevant info is under appointable applicants, offers made, accepted offers. The more competitive entry level training schemes are very skewed to UK graduates in that year.
https://medical.hee.nhs.uk/medical-training-recruitment/medical-specialty-training/equality-and-diversity/equality-and-diversity-2023-recruitment-data/country-of-qualification-2023-recruitment-data

What may be persuasive for a significant issue from 2024 is, as @AsTearsGoBy has pointed out, the data that @mumsneedwine has alluded to in her post “Doctors can't get jobs. They dream of a training number but can't get one despite publishing papers and having amazing portfolios and feedback.”. Currently that is hearsay but could be converted into evidence according to the deaneries for which she knows this was the case.

Otherwise my advice would be for current FY2s who genuinely want to stay in the UK (rather than are actually attracted by Australia etc) to actually apply to FY3 posts and not be restrictive in their choice of those. At worst they will provide evidence to substantiate the issues raised here. Or they may find the situation is not as bleak as is portrayed here.

Finance budgets for staffing are dire currently for NHS hospitals and GP practices. However that does not affect training posts and is unlikely to affect FY3 type jobs either.

@PlopSofa @Needmoresleep we need to draw attention to the situation detailed here which is scandalous!!!
Hope this sheds more light @sendsummer
It's not just a few anecdotes nor xenophobic. The situation has got out of hand!

https://www.reddit.com/r/doctorsUK/comments/1by1cw7/comment/kyhln1x/

In DDs deanery there seem to be several IMGs still hanging around thought their contracts have finished, or they were let go, who are relying on short notice locum work. The work is, but its nature quite unreliable which maybe why the BMA also referred to exploited overseas doctors as well as the lack of vacancies for UK trained doctors. In addition if they had a few days off some of her friends, perhaps wanting to buy a car or pay for a holiday, would do the odd extra shift.

If, as the Reddit thread suggests, budgetary pressure means even this type of job will be harder to come by. Yet if Australia runs out of jobs, this is what our DC will have to do.

@sendsummer so how do you suggest they get these F3 jobs ? 800+ applicants within 12 hours for last one DD tried and they rejected the application she did after her shift (earliest she could apply) as they'd closed the job off.
Many of her friends have had the same problem. Lots of bots abroad just spam the applications so our doctors, who are working, can't get a look in.

V glad to hear that it's all just heresay. All those F2s who have no chance of training this year and no locums will be v glad to hear it too.

My DS was on a night shift when the MSRA exam slots came out and by the time he was awake all the local ones had gone and he had to travel hours to find a free timeslot. The whole system is a total mess!

@mumsneedwine I suggest that she collects the evidence of her multiple FY3 applications blocked by early closure. And follow each one up with a letter to the trust clinical department lead coed to HR to point out the issue. That letter could be used as a template to use for all applications which have been similarly blocked. If all her peers and others did the same it would at least be evidenced action rather than hearsay.

Does anyone know why the PLAB (prerequisite to work in the UK) exam was maintained (but made MLA compliant) when in fact there had been earlier discussions to do away with the PLAB altogether and make all applicants including UK and IMG sit the same exam??? It just smacks of a two tier system to favour IMG recruitment. Not disputing the need for IMGs nor that many are fantastic and valuable members of the NHS. Just objecting to the current recruitment system that's letting UK grads down.

I strongly believe that in fairness to all applicants and for patient safety (see Reddit link in my previous post) we should make IMGs sit the MLA just like UK applicants instead of the PLAB.

@sendsummer 😂 on top of her job, portfolio and life. Why should she ? She's off to NZ if the NHS don't want her

Otherwise my advice would be for current FY2s who genuinely want to stay in the UK (rather than are actually attracted by Australia etc) to actually apply to FY3 posts and not be restrictive in their choice of those. At worst they will provide evidence to substantiate the issues raised here. Or they may find the situation is not as bleak as is portrayed here.

Sendsummer, several posters here have given examples of the vast numbers applying for positions, even in less popular deaneries and presumably in less popular areas. Both Haff and Mumsneed have given specific examples. One other threads more senior doctors have given examples of the number of applications they are receiving.

You suggest that in order to provide data our DC should be coming off busy shifts and apply for jobs they have no chance of getting. Would you do that in their place?

As it is Haff and Mumsneed DC have been applying for suitable vacancies but in both cases the sheer weight of numbers has rendered them ineligible or the recruitment process is having to be repeated.

You presumably have access to application numbers for locum positions. People will be very delighted if you suggest places or types of work where our DC might stand a reasonable chance. Again it a sort of blame the young doctors for not applying so not providing the data which would allow the NHS to see the problem. When the easier solution would be to consult with F2s about their future plans and the reasons behind it.

And yes DDs decision two years ago was to apply for a very demanding set of F1/F2 placements (no psych,. no community) and then do an F3. She has worked out that she will not get an F3 position so will go to Australia and study for the exams over there. She is not choosing Australia per se. It all sounds logical to me, given the NHS have shown no interest in retaining her.

Heresay. Not sure any comment has made me angrier. Take it your own child is not an F2 ? We are living this. Watching our kids worrying about their futures. Wondering how they are going to pay rent (because home ownership is impossible if you are never in one place for more than a year).
7 years of study. £000,000 of debt. All to now be facing unemployment. Not one of Dads cohort has got into training so far. Despite having amazing IMT and Paeds portfolios.

@mumsneedwine “Why should she”
She does n’t. She and others made the effort to strike for higher pay so may have the appetite to affect change for this issue if they truly want to stay in the UK. Otherwise they are just making ghost applications which won’t appear on any system. In any case, she will have a wonderful time in New Zealand and gain perspective on different healthcare issues there.

@Needmoresleep you are surmising your DD has no chance of getting them. If your DD actually wants the jobs at her local hospitals, she can write or speak face to face to the relevant clinical contact there before they are advertised saying that she is very interested but worried that the application portal will close before she has time to submit her application.

mumsneedwine Needmoresleep has said that her DD has already bought her first house where she currently works.That is incredibly unusual for any medic at the F2 stage but presumably the plan is to rent it out to pay for her own rent in turn, if she moves elsewhere. So unusual but not impossible. My own DS has been in the same place since F1 - so for six years (moving isn't the issue with buying a house in London - it's the impossible prices).

In fact most of DS's medical school friends have also stayed in London. Two went to Australia for a year because they wanted a change (they were a couple) but apart from that very few have not remained in London. One was offered a training post recently in Cambridge (rather than London which was his first preference) but he's going to commute.

@AsTearsGoBy re your DS, when did he graduate from medical school? Just trying to understand how the employment opportunities for those graduating from medical school in the UK have changed over time.

2018 Yes, I've been interested in that exact same thing too OneMorePiece. It certainly looks as though things were easier for his cohort but when I look back and think of the things he and his friends have done to notch up points on top of their day jobs, I'm not clear just how different the effort required is to land a training post in the specialty and geographical area you want to work in. So I'm not yet convinced that the cohort of 2018 were just waved into the post of their choice. I'm also not sure that any of his cohort (by which I mean his university friends/ cohort) started their F1 jobs thinking that work/ life balance should be the key priority in the early stages. They much more seem to pack things in and accept that life is temporarily tough. But then, this is the summer of their lives. Plenty of jobs seem to demand extraordinary hours, not just Medicine.

@AsTearsGoBy please read this to see what's going on. It's written by IMGs and UK doctors working in hospitals in the last year. Press the + sign for the extra detail. It's a little long but please keep reading to the end. Thanks.

www.reddit.com/r/doctorsUK/comments/1by1cw7/poorly_trained_imgs_and_inadequacy_of_plab/

I mean I've read it but I'm not quite clear why I'm being directed to a reddit piece about the professional abilities of IMGs. I've said remarkably little about IMGs

Realistically it is usually more of a question of where you can get in