Ideal university for Medicine

[Kayt79]

DS is in Y12, and set on Medicine. He's been to a few open days already, but until he's done his UCAT next summer it's impossible to know where will be realistic to apply.

So, just out of interest, and putting aside entry requirements and "prestige", which would be your ideal universities for Medicine, based on the overall student experience?

@Needmoresleep to get a £150,000 mortgage you need approx 10% £15,000 deposit. Which most don't have just yet in F2. They don't earn that much to save £1,000 a month when paying rent and heating. And hospital parking, GMC fees and exam fees 🤬.

But main issue is no point owning a place in Surrey if only job is in Newcastle. Don't want to be a landlord.

I understand your concern but as the guy initiated Brexit, I feel uncomfortable with it. In fact, like you I am very worried about young people. It's not just medicine in fact. It is becoming evident in other sectors too like STEM.

If you scrutunise the post-Brexit points based immigration system you will see it allows highly able overseas candidates to compete on an equal basis with our UK DCs. In other countries, there are restrictions which prevent this from happening to their citizens.

Also it was evident in the recent entrance exam results for the most competitive UK university STEM courses that large numbers of overseas candidates beat UK candidates by wide margins. This is resulting in UK students missing out on courses they have worked so hard to get into. Imperial and LSE courses can be 60 - 70% overseas students. Prestigious universities in other parts of the world limit the % of overseas students. I know universities need money but there has to be other ways without penalising young people.

Without investing in the education of UK young people, this country will lose out long term. Kier has mentioned plans to prioritise the domestic workforce and reduce net migration figures but given the current state of the world, I am not sure when attention will be focussed on that.

It's not a surprise we are no longer a contender in many areas on the world stage! Training the rest of the world whether from limiting numbers for UK students on prestigious uni courses or training overseas doctors has taken precedence. Surely this is affecting the morale, finances and mental health of young people who have been abandoned due to bad policies. These issues can certainly be divisive, but I do fear politicians that may stoke division further for their own benefit. However, there is an urgent need to address this for the sake of our DCs and also before it's too late and gets so bad, that it becomes divisive in this multi cultural society.

@mumsneedwine look at the actual numbers in the link I have provided rather than out of context numbers you show in your photo.

@Needmoresleep I completely agree that application portals for FY3 post being closed very early due to high numbers sounds a much more pressing issue. Data for that is not being collected across trusts, hence the need to make the case with facts.

@sendsummer what. the out of context figures from the NHS ? Gained via a FOI request.

I'm thinking @AsTearsGoBy is Angela Pritchard 😂

And @sendsummer is Colin Melville.

They seem to not want to see the reality 🤷‍♀️.

There seem to be a lot of Angela Pritchards. Which one am I (alleged to be)? (some Angela Pritchards appear to be much prettier and more youthful than others).

The one that hates doctors

Could you please link to the correct Angela Pritchard? For clarity.

Our stupid, lazy UK trained doctors should just suck it up and be unemployed because the consultants from India want an ST1 job.
Consultants from India get consultant , GP or associate specialist jobs here. Not sure why they would want to completely restart their training.

what. the out of context figures from the NHS ? Gained via a FOI request.
Look at the complete set of data at source from the link.

@AsTearsGoBy but I thought you were an expert on everything NHS ?

@sendsummer er nope. Consultants are cooking for ST1 jobs to gain entry to the NHS and get a visa to live here. Many from red list countries.

Why do you think this is all made up
@sendsummer @AsTearsGoBy ?

Apologies, I don't in any way understand this post. I'd welcome an explanation with evidence to support the claim.

I also don't understand why my name is tagged here mumsneedwine. Please could you explain this too?

Cooking?

This is certainly becoming less lucid by the minute.

@AsTearsGoBy ah so now I'm unhinged 😂😂

Amanda Pritchard is the head of the NHS. Workforce planning is not her forte. She likes everyone but doctors. Thinks they can be replaced by the alphabet soup.

You're tagged because you seem to want to argue that all this is not true. That we are somehow making the issues up. I really really wish we were. I don't understand why anyone would think we'd make it up.

I think it's a bit of a stretch for you to extract from my posts that I don't think that there's a problem.

Applications closing early are an indication that there is a huge demand for these jobs. We are talking about hundreds if not thousands. More if application deadlines are open for more than a few hours.

Those who have the fuller CVs -say a decade of experience in their home country, or lots of publications etc, will be prioritised. All applications need to be treated fairly and the NHS is likely to use its traditional priorities. Things like strong appraisals, and character attributes like personability or resilience only show through at interview stage. The average F2 is unlikely to get that far.

You keep talking about data. Who is supposed to commission or provide that data? Who alerts them to problems? Why don’t policy makers in the NHS consider the possible impact of decisions before making recommendations. When you say facts, the issue of early closing application deadlines or Trusts being inundated with applications has been raised on this and other threads on a number of occasions. Yes anecdote, but doesn’t theNHS have anyone doing workforce planning. Isn’t it their job to then find the facts.

Millions upon millions are spent on medical education in the country every year. This is money wasted if the workforce planning policy person can’t make the time or effort to check things out when there are suggestions that things are going very awry.

Just to add to what @mumsneedwine has said on that point.

The IMG consultants mentioned here are possibly taking lower grades jobs in the hope of getting settlement and British citizenship. I can understand its attractiveness as the UK passport is ranked no 5 in the world and gives access to 190 visa free destinations whereas the Indian passport is ranked 85th with just 57 visa free destinations. These IMGs want to avoid inconvenient restrictions on global work and travel opportunities hence the deluge of applications while the UK authorities are asleep at the wheel. I guess it's only natural as salaries are probably low there too. Plus imagine having to attend immigration interviews, show proof of finances, property ownership, etc when applying for global work opportunities or even travel, something we haven't had to worry about ourselves.

This is exactly the point I made about 10 pages earlier when the question of exploitation came up.

Trusts may well be taking on more senior doctors from other countries and paying them a lower wage than their experience would suggest they should be paid. If you can get a Ferrari for a bargain, why wouldn’t you?

However it’s a bit of scratch my back and I’ll scratch yours. Five years into this and residency and a British passport is on offer for an IMG. So there are other non-paying carrots (benefits) available that make the sacrifice of lower than warranted pay manageable.

@sendsummer please would you give the premise for your figures from the FOI request data. I’m not a data buff so I would appreciate the insight of someone who is better at this than me.

In a recent article in the Guardian, Kier Starmer is quoted saying

"The government would publish a white paper with a plan to reduce immigration, Starmer said, adding that he would target sectors seeking labour from abroad. We will reform the points-based system and make sure that applications for the relevant visa routes, whether it’s the skilled worker route or the shortage occupation list, will now come with new expectations on training people here in our country,” he said.

If only the government could be made aware of the exact issues being faced by our DCs and also of the urgency of which these issues need to be addressed! There's just too much resistance to helping the latest cohorts of UK medical graduates! Also the public is unaware that UK grads they have paid to train are being kicked to the kerb whereas IMGs, some fresh out of overseas medical schools are being prioritised, and how the NHS is engaging in arrangements to upskill overseas workforces who send their medical grads for training in the UK. Instead of understanding their plight, they have been demonised as young people abandoning the NHS for Australia/NZ.

@AsTearsGoBy you said I was 'less lucid'. Which was a bit rude. However let's start the day a fresh.

This thread needs renaming to 'Want to know why you can't see a doctor !'. Because the NHS doesn't like them very much.