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Higher education

Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

Ideal university for Medicine

634 replies

Kayt79 · 30/10/2024 18:40

DS is in Y12, and set on Medicine. He's been to a few open days already, but until he's done his UCAT next summer it's impossible to know where will be realistic to apply.

So, just out of interest, and putting aside entry requirements and "prestige", which would be your ideal universities for Medicine, based on the overall student experience?

OP posts:
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mumsneedwine · 12/01/2025 15:40

Even a ST1 earns £24 an hour. I pay my plumber £80.

mumsneedwine · 12/01/2025 15:43

@ProfessorLayton1 that's the scary thing. If we do t train doctors who will stay in the NHS once consultants (& many IMGs go back to their home countries), then what will happen to the training of future doctors. And patients.

We need more consultants to clear the back logs. We have the doctors ready, willing and able to do the job.

AsTearsGoBy · 12/01/2025 15:46

No the £15 an hour was good for the placards. Even the BMA cited caveats (and of course lots of others did too). So I'm wondering if these figures about the training posts have similar caveats.

AsTearsGoBy · 12/01/2025 15:48

mumsneedwine do we currently have enough consultants with enough capacity to train an extra slew of junior doctors?

AsTearsGoBy · 12/01/2025 15:50

(Expensive plumber you have there! Mine is an absolute first rate plumber and charges £30 for a call out/ per hour).

mumsneedwine · 12/01/2025 15:53

@AsTearsGoBy refer to my figures. £15 was true. Yes they earn more if they work more, but many F1s this year are on 9-5 basic contracts as they had to make up jobs for them.

Yes there are enough consultants to train more doctors (let's face it, many had time to train PAs instead). A few more each year and by the time the extra medical students come through the current ST4/5 will be there too. But not if loads keep leaving as conditions are so bad.

mumsneedwine · 12/01/2025 15:53

Where the hell do you live to get a plumber for £30 an hour !!

mumsneedwine · 12/01/2025 15:54

@AsTearsGoBy you don't seem to want to believe the reality facing a whole cohort of young doctors. Lucky you.

PlopSofa · 12/01/2025 16:37

mumsneedwine · 12/01/2025 15:53

Where the hell do you live to get a plumber for £30 an hour !!

Back in the 1950s?

Im also wondering where you live for a £30 call-out charge for a plumber!

It’s been £80 where I live for quite some time now. When I first moved here 15 years ago it was £60.

Kayt79 · 12/01/2025 16:57

I've found it now - thanks.

The BMA message cites the ratio of "applications to places" though, which is misleading due to the number of applicants making multiple applications. A more relevant statistic would be the ratio of applicants to places, which doesn't seem to be mentioned.

OP posts:
Kayt79 · 12/01/2025 16:59

mumsneedwine · 12/01/2025 13:16

@Kayt79 see previous post with the BMA message.

Apologies - I meant to quote this post in my reply 🙂

OP posts:
mumsneedwine · 12/01/2025 17:03

@Kayt79 no it takes into account multiple applications (see attached - add all the applications up and then divide by actual number of people). It's 4.7:1 if everyone applied to one speciality.

However this was 2023. 2025 is expected to be 10:1 if you extrapolate how many people have sat the MSRA. For GP potentially 45:1.

Ideal university for Medicine
mumsneedwine · 12/01/2025 17:11

Sorry 2024.

Kayt79 · 12/01/2025 17:26

mumsneedwine · 12/01/2025 17:03

@Kayt79 no it takes into account multiple applications (see attached - add all the applications up and then divide by actual number of people). It's 4.7:1 if everyone applied to one speciality.

However this was 2023. 2025 is expected to be 10:1 if you extrapolate how many people have sat the MSRA. For GP potentially 45:1.

Thank you 🙂 So how many specialty training posts were there in total in 2023?

Or do I need to add up the numbers in this link? https://medical.hee.nhs.uk/medical-training-recruitment/medical-specialty-training/competition-ratios/2023-competition-ratios

2023 Competition ratios | Workforce, training and education | NHS England

Competition ratios for the 2023 recruitment round

https://medical.hee.nhs.uk/medical-training-recruitment/medical-specialty-training/competition-ratios/2023-competition-ratios

OP posts:
Needmoresleep · 12/01/2025 17:54

AsTearsGoBy · 12/01/2025 15:48

mumsneedwine do we currently have enough consultants with enough capacity to train an extra slew of junior doctors?

I understand that even Consultants are now recruited from overseas. This apparently leads to problems in that they are used to different ways of working, and can then, presumably through lack of confidence, struggle with decision making. Whereas at a more junior level, if there are problems, it is possible for other team members such as nurses/junior doctors to have a discrete word with the registrar or consultant. Much more difficult if the person is a consultant.

(And worth noting that the problems might not be medical, but the way a doctor interacts with fellow staff or patients.)

@ProfessorLayton1 your post was interesting. A couple of years back I was trying to help an older Ukrainian doctor find work. He had a pretty starry CV, including radiology, but little English so was looking for work, perhaps with ultra sound. He was 60 so did not have time to jump through the doctor hoops. I asked a friend who had just made consultant at a very young age to look through the CV that I had helped rewrite, and he showed me his. It was weird, pages upon pages of competitions won in Thailand and publications in Peru. I did not understand it as it was so completely unlike the CV you would see for any other profession. I now realise he understood the game around collecting points. I just wish there was more interest in actual experience and how you perform on the job. It is fine and dandy to have all sorts of publications or to have stuck to a narrow Oxbridge/London path but what happens to the smaller regional hospitals. I have heard older doctors complain that the system is producing plenty of specialists, but out in the sticks they need general pediatricians, geriatricians, even general surgeons. DD is currently in one of those hospitals, somewhere I had never heard of until she went there. 40 on trolleys overnight, massive bed blocking in intensive care, a really deprived area with inadequate mental health provision and a huge drug problem. She is really enjoying it, likes being busy, and would be happy to stay. I am confident that her colleagues would love her to stay. But...she is busy and does not have the time to faff round looking for obscure competitions to enter. Her deanery is less popular so it used to be that if you could probably stay if you wanted. Now with the massive increase in overseas applicants it will be very tough. With the real likelihood that DD and her peers will have to be content with zero hours jobs covering for staff absences, and having to hand hold new arrivals whether locums/F3s/specialist trainees or consultants. What is this about?

I have said that doctor's children tend to do better because they can access parental networks as well as their own. DD is lucky as she, in part because she saw the writing on the wall, bought a house and so could take in a lodger to pay the mortgage whilst essentially working as a temp doctor on insecure short notice, short-term contracts. She comes from central London so could also do what a neighbours child did, which is to come home, take on similar temp work which those paying rent can't afford to do, and then slip into a more structured locum/F3 job in a London teaching hospital which hopefully will lead to a training position. A different approach was taken by my cousin's daughter in the days when it was easier to get F3/CTF jobs. She went to live at home with her medic fiance in an expensive part of the home counties for a couple of years, so had time to study for exams (whilst mum cooked meals etc) and do well enough to get on GP training. It also meant that they had money saved for a deposit.

In short for all the talk of diversity and encouraging non traditional applicants, the system is set up to advantage those whose parents can step in and help.

Needmoresleep · 12/01/2025 17:55

Oh and I pay my plumber £180 per hour.

ProfessorLayton1 · 12/01/2025 18:09

Both of us are consultants, but we have not had any input into our DD's university exams or career.
She is fiercely independent and as far as we are concerned, it's her life and she can try and sort it out.

I don't know which deaneries she has applied and haven't had any input into her application process.
She wanted to stay in London and am sure this will be reflected in her application. I would have liked her to start FP jobs in a small hospital in a less desirable part of the country.
But she will live and learn!
We have excellent relationship with her, didn't want to come across otherwise.

Needmoresleep · 12/01/2025 18:58

That was not the point I am making.

What I am seeing is that when DC finish F2 and are applying for lots of F3 jobs and facing strong international competition, parents sometimes step in. Friends and colleagues might alert them to a suitable F3 job coming up, so the application can be prepared carefully. DDs contacts in the area she wants to work in will be limited to a single department in a small hospital. Yes they will know she is interested and alert her if anything is coming up. But with other applications, from Dundee to Aberystwyth, she will be just another online applicant amongst hundreds, possibly thousands from all across the world.

Doctor friends look a bit sheepish and agree the situation is ridiculous, but then suggest their child was ‘lucky’ enough to get a locum job in the right area which then puts them in a strong position to apply for training. I don’t blame them.

The alternative is to play the game and be ruthless about gathering points and making connections.

Look at the stats. It is not surprising that all but two on my daughter’s last general medicine rotation expect to have to go to Australia.

AsTearsGoBy · 12/01/2025 19:00

PlopSofa · 12/01/2025 16:37

Back in the 1950s?

Im also wondering where you live for a £30 call-out charge for a plumber!

It’s been £80 where I live for quite some time now. When I first moved here 15 years ago it was £60.

I'm quite out of the way tbf but my current plumber is the best plumber I've ever come across in my entire life of multiple renovations/ plumbing crises. £30 and materials on top. I haven't told him he's a bargain because that price suits me just fine.

Needmoresleep · 12/01/2025 19:02

What then is even madder is that PAs are recruited because they are likely to stay, whilst many doctors from overseas won’t. (I have friends in Asia whose DC are over specifically over to get the training.) Yet if they allowed young British trained doctors the same opportunities, they too would stay.

mumsneedwine · 12/01/2025 19:09

@Kayt79 this shows all posts, but does include st/ct 3 so not for F2s. But log jams there too.

Ideal university for Medicine
OneMorePiece · 12/01/2025 19:13

I took my DC to a follow up hospital appointment last year. I was told by the nursing staff that there wouldn't be too long a wait as there were 2 doctors that day. DC was seen by a PA. She introduced herself as Physician Associate which was fine and she went through the management of his care until his next appointment. What I don't understand is why the staff were saying she was a doctor when she's not!!

mumsneedwine · 12/01/2025 19:14

@ProfessorLayton1 well she has no say in where she ends up for F1. The algorithm will give her a number and chuck her where they want. Many who chose London last year ended up in NI. 1,000 had no place until a few months before starting, 200 only a few weeks. Many F1s got made up roles so only 9-5. Not great experience apparently.

At least mine and needsmore's DC had more chance of getting their first choice through merit.

I do not know why we don't seem to like doctors in the UK. No chance mine getting anything through connections, except the ones she's made while working. But they can't magic up jobs these days.

ProfessorLayton1 · 12/01/2025 19:20

It's appalling isn't it?!
You want them to work in such dire conditions in a place they did not choose, was not given based on their merit and could end up far away from their friends and family!

mumsneedwine · 12/01/2025 19:35

It's awful and inhumane. I'm supposed to encourage and help A level students apply for medicine. It's v v hard to be positive at the moment.

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