Ideal university for Medicine

[Kayt79]

DS is in Y12, and set on Medicine. He's been to a few open days already, but until he's done his UCAT next summer it's impossible to know where will be realistic to apply.

So, just out of interest, and putting aside entry requirements and "prestige", which would be your ideal universities for Medicine, based on the overall student experience?

Thanks mumsneedwine. Those are the stats for UK applicants?

Have the chances plummeted due solely to a huge increase in international applicants at the F2 stage? Or are there other factors at play? Your graph above doesn't say that the increase in international doctors joining the workforce is focussed on any particular stage, so just wondering.

@AsTearsGoBy they are figures for all applicants, not just F2s. The issue seems to be more IMGS (loads more) competition for less speciality posts, less F3 jobs (because of PAs, ANPs etc increasing) and the locum market drying up. Add that to the increase in medical school places, this is set to get a lot lot worse in the next few years.

However, the BMA starting the realisation of the s**t show that is about to happen this autumn. Too late for my own F2, who now has started the process to get a job in Australia. Didn't take v much - no pointless exam just prove she's a good doctor. They seem to want her. But she wants to stay here so it's all v sad.

This is the public message from the BMA to its members.

The comment about exploitation is an eye opener. Does anyone know what this is about?

What's your source for the 4.79 figure please?

I'd say go for an inner city or a diverse area.

Not for the course but for the experience with patients.

I've worked with a lot of junior Drs, the ones in Oxford were, er, well not all of them, but some of them didn't live in real world.

Things like a mother turning up for an appointment with 4 children in tow because it is the school holidays completely flummoxed one.

A patient who didn't speak English was another cause of consternation.

And to follow up what someone said up thread Oxford grads have been the best at school, the best at uni, and they suddenly find that a nurse, a tech or a secretary can give them instructions.

Inner cities and diverse area give you the skills to deal with non English speakers, different backgrounds, cultural understanding. You may also pick up a bit of the language(s) spoken by patients.

Yes this is one of the reasons why DS has always opted for London right from F1, having grown up in a rural area with one of the least diverse populations in the country.

Oxford grads have been the best at school, the best at uni

Well not all of them can have been the best at uni....

A patient who didn't speak English was another cause of consternation

Surely it is a concern if there was no family member to translate, or no hospital translator provided? I'm not sure you can point the finger at Oxford elitism for a legitimate concern.

It's bizarre for a current student to qualify with no experience of patients who don't speak English.

I qualified back in the dark ages from Birmingham and all of us were very familiar with Mrs Begum who didn't speak English, had her 8 yr old son to translate and had 'total body pain'. Which was usually quite a complex mixture of medical pathology, isolation and unhappiness with her relationships.

Wherever you work in the UK there will be a community with no/limited English and very different health beliefs.

Now you just get your phone out and it translates speech to speech for you.

AnnaMagnani it's entirely possible that this doctor was concerned that there was no translator to help both the patient and himself. But it fits the Oxford-grads-aren't-as-grounded [good]-as-the-rest-of-us narrative, which can get a bit tired. I doubt even an Oxford grad would be thrown - it's too silly for words.

mumsneeedwine do you have a source for the figure three years ago too?

True - at med school you are taught the importance of always using a translator, it not being a family member etc.

Real life - you always use a family member. Or a random staff member. Or the classic method of just speaking in English but more loudly, with a bit of mime thrown in.

Thankfully lots of these patients will now immediately get their phone out with their preferred app. It's a game changer.

I imagine the mime option could be quite challenging for certain conditions....

exploitation-

It sounds like qualified/experienced doctors may be taking much more junior posts in order to land a job in the U.K.

Just an assumption, I could be wrong but you could see how the current set up might be used in a somewhat exploitative way?

That email from the BMA is positive. Too late though you’re right mum needs wine. From your charts this has been brewing for some time.

I hope your DD can come back at some stage.

I don't know, but do know that if DD stays in the UK, and for various reasons she won't want to leave before the start of 2026, the work she is most likely to get is short term short notice locum work. Sort of like a supply teacher. If someone calls in sick, you go in and cover. There were a couple of overseas doctors doing this when she was on her F1 rotations. For various reasons they had found it hard to land a more structured locum role. Now I expect that increasing numbers of UK trained doctors will find themselves in the same position. Good for the NHS as these doctors will have good knowledge of the NHS and a fairly standardised training, with few language or cultural difficulties. But tough on them as they too will be vulnerable to exploitation.

On choosing to train in London you may be a bit out of date. The system was changed a year ago so that though you could give preferences, points counted for nothing and so if you did not get one of your preferred choices you would be sent anywhere. We know of a couple, one close to the top of her year at Oxford, who ended up in Northern Ireland.

DD started by working in a very deprived area with a very strong local accent. She was initially a bit worried about a fellow F1, trained in an English speaking country, who seemed in permanent panic mode. Things calmed down after a couple of months and he was fine. It turned out that he was struggling to understand what was said to him. DD used to be frustrated because at the start she was always paired with him. Thinking back perhaps it was deliberate and sensible, as DD was the only other F1 in the group who did not train at the local University and speaks RP English.

Yes, DS went into the F1 system when you could rank your choices and for the stages beyond that he's only ever put London as an option. It's worked out, with just a few squeaky moments. He may have to move out for a consultant's job assuming he gets through the next three and a half years, but he may want to by then.

It sounds like qualified/experienced doctors may be taking much more junior posts in order to land a job in the U.K

PlopSofa that clearly does happen but couldn't be construed as exploitation. Or could it? Only on a very broad interpretation?

@Kayt79 see previous post with the BMA message.

I will try and find the BMA message with the figures from 3 years ago. But as they state in the latest post the ratio went up 39% between 23/24 (posted again here). And will be much higher this year. The attached table is quite clear though.

I very much doubt DD will come back if she goes. Feels like this country doesn't want or value her. She can't afford to live on uncertain Locums as rent won't cover itself if she doesn't get any one month. So she'll go if she doesn't get a training post (because of a stupid exam that contains 2 questions on the speciality she wants to go into), and make a life in a country that values its doctors. I'm sad. But want her to be employed and happy.

Oh and they can swing for her student loan.

The BMA were a bit slippery with their £15 an hour thing though mumsneedwine. Not trying to be confrontational here but it really was just an eye catching slogan rather than the actual real figure. So I'm curious about where the figures come from too. It just seems a monumental leap between three years ago and last year. Are these figures being massaged at all do you know?

Sorry I haven’t had time to read the full thread but as someone who has taught at a couple of different med schools would say
-look for a relatively small school
-if a school exists where ‘firms’ of students are still maintained so they get to be with the same group of people for a few years, that would be great
the reason l say this is that medicine is emotionally tough, and having a group of peers who you know and can be vulnerable in front of, really helps

i do think schools vary in terms of opportunities offered and random extra stuff they get students to do. Even if it isn’t important at F1 ranking time, the earlier you do your first conference talk the easier it is later when it counts.
Conversely if you want to do a specialty where you get your hands dirty go somewhere more poorly resourced as then you can have a go at stuff earlier.

the point about going somewhere where you’d like to end up is well made as people tend to stick around.

I think DDs observation might be that whereas UK trained doctors have to go through F1 & F2 and not all will make it, similar weeding out does not seem to happen for overseas trained doctors. They will probably have been recruited to specific jobs. As with any profession, some will not be up to the job they were recruited for. They are let go by that trust, and some then, rather than go home, bounce around various short term jobs all over the place. If they had had to go through F1, shortcomings might have been spotted then and they would be supported to address them or they would have failed and be required to repeat F1 until they passed.

It is a worrying trend when the UK graduates can't get into speciality training even if they are good enough to do the job.
I was on a panel to recruit specialist trainees in 2020 /2021 during covid and I was so annoyed with the whole process and raised this as an issue and have refused to participate in the process.
It's totally bonkers if you can tick a box and get extra points- for example international paper presentation when you know the paper or the conference are not of the standard expected!
If I remember correctly, the top 10% of the class got extra points - almost all of the international graduates claimed to be in the top 10%!

I qualified in India and came to this country, so I am not against IMG's as I was one decades ago, but the whole recruitment system just supports people who can tick box!!

My Dd is in final year medicine and I do not expect her to stick around to train here.
She is passionate about NHS and it's a real shame to loose people like her but she has to do what is right for her.
Working conditions in NHS is really poor and what I am noticing is that the international trainees get trained and leave to Middle East ( better pay) or their home countries once they finish speciality training. A proportion of IMG always left to go the different countries but it did not affect NHS so much as most of the trainees were from UK in the past.
This needs to be addressed asap, if not we will not have enough suitably trained consultants to recruit in the future!!

@AsTearsGoBy er how was it not an actual figure ???

Let's do some maths.

£31,825 a year / 52 weeks / 40 hours = £15.30 an hour

£15 an hour was correct. Even on Xmas day. F1s now earn

£36,616 a year / 52 weeks / 40 hours = £17.60 an hour.

So £6 more than minimum wage, to better first person at your cardiac arrest.