University choices - the best of the 'rest'

[SlightlyJaded]

I was on the A level results thread last year and anyone who was on it will have seen our experience. DD predicted all As was completely blindsided by terrible results. We were all shocked as was her school. As a result, she missed her first choice and her insurance choice - it was bloody awful and clearing was a very much a scramble. She is ok-ish now, but still hurting and feeling the fallout...

DS is in his A level year now and we've done a few Uni tours and he is trying to get focussed on his UCAS, finishing his personal statement and whatnot. But having witnessed what his sister went through, he is wondering about going for a much 'easier' insurance option than she did. Her choices needed AAA (first) and AAB (insurance) and he is now saying he doesn't want to be aspirational at all with his insurance as he'd rather know he had something if he fucks up.

I don't think he will fuck up, but I sort of get his logic. He is leaning towards a solid/Russell Group first choice that will need AAA/AAB and then one of the city 'second' tier options: MMU / Nottingham Trent / Leeds Beckett etc. He is keen to do Northern City but not wedded to it.

Is this a silly idea? From experience, he would be more likely to get one of these in clearing I think so maybe should stick with more aspirational for insurance? But again, he doesn't like uncertainty so I get where he is coming from.

His predicted grades are still moving a bit but broadly AAB - possibly ABB. He is smart but not A A A* academic.

I want to advise him well but just not sure. And if anyone has good experience/recommendations of that second tier, I'd love to hear them? I don't mean the non-RG ones that everyone knows are amazing: St Andrews etc, more the genuinely 'lesser regarded' ones that are still pretty good.

Thank you!

I agree @HistoryMmam I mean.... I think A Levels are an antiquated nonsense, but that's for another thread. Clearing is a bun flight where nobody quite knows when to jump and when to hold out and it all feels like a blind gamble. It cannot possibly be the best way to decide the next three/four crucial years.

It's effectively applying with grades in hand and there must surely be a better way. I said it upthread and I will say it again, if you had three choices: Aspirational (Firm) / Hopeful (likely outcome) / Insurance (backup plan) - most of this could be avoided. Students would almost certainly get one of the three if they chose sensibly and Uni's would be taking in students that want to be with them and will have looked at accomodation and suchlike.

Yes @SlightlyJaded Having read threads like this on mumsnet over the years it’s obvious that some people understand the system a lot more than others. I suppose that’s to be expected but when it comes to young people it should be a lot clearer. I think schools and colleges are to blame for some of the lack of information and in some cases misinformation.

Ds and I have gone back to re-trawl the pool for 2025 entry.

Is it a risky strategy to not include as insurance any unis still have clearing vacancies for ds' subject for 2024 entry as of today? These unis are Leicester, Hull, Lancaster and Reading. From the UCAS website, practically anyone who applies gets in e.g. 1 in1 or 19 of 20.

There are other unis which have similar entry requirements but which do not have any courses in clearing such as Surrey and Royal Holloway.

Based on this, if ds puts down an insurance, it would either be Surrey or Royal Holloway, because on results day, we assume he will still be get at least one or more of Leicester, Hull, Lancaster or Reading anyway?

Is that too optimistic? That will allow ds to choose one aspirational, 3 standard and 1 insurance. His course is economics, which is generally popular.

This is how I am leaning @blueshoes

For example, Nottingham Trent still has some History courses in clearing, so whilst that doesn't guarantee that they will next year, it does suggest that some of the ex polys will be offering less popular subjects with fairly low grades.

I think DS will select his five on a similar basis to your list and ultimately, in an ideal world with a full set of conditional offers, he might put two 'standard' down as his firm and insurance. But decent 'standards' - top 20/30 ranked Unis that have historically allowed a grade drop but still be fairly aspirational. He MAY decide to go one aspirational and one standard - he will base this on his mocks - but this thread has steered him away from dropping his insurance option too low.

@SlightlyJaded - I remember your original thread about your DD as mine was in a similar position although only with one very much poorer than expected grade (in the subject she wanted to study). Can I suggest a different plan B? My DD had to take a gap year for surgery and in the end I think that stood her in better stead than clearing as it meant she had time to process what had happened. At the same time she was able to review what was available on clearing and how long it hung around for. If it wasn't for the surgery she'd probably have resat that A level but instead did an EPQ in that subject. Takin the year out meant she was able to have sensible email conversations with admissions tutors, backed up by her teacher doing a cracking email to support her and she got 3 unconditional RG offers pretty well by return of pressing go on the UCAS. By then she also knew from her talks with admissions which unis were likely to offer which weren't (and therefore not worth wasting time on) and which were a maybe. She had another offer dependent on the EPQ result.

SO maybe worth discussing with your DS that he might have a think/research some gap year options so that if results day doesn't go to plan he doesn't need to panic and unless there is an obvious standout with accommodation in clearing he could just look at applying with grades in hand. (With the added bonus of a year to either do something interesting and maybe related to what he wants to study or at least a year to earn some money.)

But thats bonkers because Lancaster is overall a top ten university and much higher than Royal Holloway or Surrey (although Surrey is moving up again after a few years of struggling with league tables)

So you would chose a lower ranking university as your insurance because lancaster would likely be in clearing. Why? Even if it was on the basis that you could reject your insurance and go through clearing it messes up accommodation choices/deposits etc.

Lancaster is in clearing for most courses because it has a different system and students in most subjects do a major and a minor so there is much more flexibility to move between courses. They also have loads of accommodation on campus and great lecture facilities so they don't restrict their numbers due to space and can basically keep most courses open.

@Londonmummy66 Thanks for taking the time to outline your story. It's certainly worth considering. As things are DS is chomping at the bit to get off to Uni but you are completely right that it should be presented as a positive way to deal with disappointment. And it's great news that grades in hand and teacher references meant you got offers from RG Unis. Absolutely worth noting. THank you :)

@user746016 thanks for your perspective. I was not aware that Lancaster was so highly ranked. I don't put too much store by league tables as apart from the obvious suspects, the rankings vary quite a bit depending on which table and what they look at. Ds will revisit Lancaster for insurance. However, what you said in your last para is reassuring in that we can have a second bite at Lancaster at clearing not just for the course but accommodation. So instead of putting Royal Holloway as insurance, maybe ds will put Southampton as insurance instead.

Yes, I am very much leaning in this direction for ds. Ds wants Nottingham (aspirational). It would be good for ds to be able to put as many standards (next tier down in grades) as UCAS choices as he can get away with to maximise the chance of an offer from at least one, if not two, so he has a firm and insurance. As this will be in the AAB, ABB territory, one more level down to BBB and BBC are clearing level grades. Therefore, does he dare to 'waste' one UCAS choice for the certainty on results day of at least getting his insurance?

In the worst case scenario, he can pivot from economics to engineering as engineering in the standard-type unis are generally a grade lower.

Or he can apply with grades in hand like @Londonmummy66 and @thedefinitionofmadness's dc. He is open to this possibility.

DS should put down as insurance the university he likes best and would be happy attending - whether that is Southampton, Royal Holloway or Lancaster. They're very different and in very different parts of the country. It makes little sense to put down a university you wouldn't be really happy attending. It's your life for 3-4 years.

Southampton is more of a city experience albeit it quite a small city centre, the university sites are in the city and are split so you might never go onto some of the sites depending on what you are studying. It's quite like Nottingham in that respect. It's gritty and whilst it's near to the sea it's all dockland rather than beaches.

Lancaster is completely on one site for everything - medicine included. The only thing taught elsewhere is ancient history which is taught partly at Lancaster castle (purely for the fun of it I think) and Lancaster is a city but a small one. Its also very close to the sea (you can see the sea from campus) but its the faded seaside resort of Morecambe - although the Eden project is currently being built there in conjunction with the university so Morecambe is on its way up with lots of reinvestment in the area. Its campus is very much like the main Nottingham University Campus but more green space around it.

Ive lived in Nottingham, Lancaster and Southampton!

I don't know Royal Holloway personally. Main building looks beautiful.

This year, over 80% of students got into their firm offer, if I remember correctly. Around the grades you’re mentioning, most places will still accept someone with a one grade slip rather than fill that place from Clearing.

The courses where there is huge competition and not much flex over grades, tend to the top tier places for the most competing courses. Most other courses cannot afford to be so rigid.

So, look to firm and insure places he really wants to go. Clearing is the back-up or for if things go better and you can upgrade. Of course people go into cLearing who’ve missed their grades, but most people are accepted by their firm choice. I guess you have to make a judgement on whether the predicted grades are wildly and unrealistically optimistic and your DC has never performed at that level, or if they are optimistic based on evidence. If the latter, you can have some confidence that the places they apply to with the right kind of grades are the right ball-park. In the end, you can’t cover every eventuality and have certainty for everything - firm, insurance and clearing. Going for what you really want, rather than the 2nd best option in case of failure seems sensible.

Economics is horribly competitive and has application rules of its own.

@WombatChocolate this is great advice. It has hard to chose an insurance as a fallback when his heart is not in it. So it is comforting to hear that to put down choices he really wants to go to. His uni choices are not elite (highest is Nottingham or lower RG) so although it is Economics, I think there could be some give to drop one grade. I could be wrong.

The challenge is working out how optimistic his predicted grades are. He is working hard every day to try and pull them up before the end of Nov as his school has given him until then to prove himself. He understands his subject matter and I believe he is a bright boy, just has not got the right exam technique and perhaps lacks focus. He is attending subject revision classes. He is trying. The school won't just give them to him.

@user746016 , I appreciate the intelligence on Nottingham, Lancaster and Southampton. What a coincidence you live in all 3 uni cities ds is considering. He prefers a campus uni and compared to London, a small city with uni blocks close by can be like a campus in comparison. He has not mentioned a beach but it is good to know he is not far from the sea.

Does anyone actually go to Nottingham to study Economics as a first choice? The numbers of applicants to Cambridge/LSE/Warwick/UCL/Bristol/Bath/Edinburgh Economics far exceed the number of combined places and many applicants to those universities will have Nottingham as a back up option. I hate to be the bearer of bad news but Econ is really, really competitive.

I know someone who had straight 9s at GCSE , predicted all A stars and rejected from everywhere except York and Warwick. The Warwick offer came in really late. Obviously he is now there. The rejections iirc were Cambridge ( after interview) , a London uni and Leeds.

It's insane.

For history or history/Politics he needs to look at course content, optional modules offered and the calibre and interests of the teaching staff as the subject can be broad. If he has to do a dissertation he will want a supervisor who shares his ideal field of study. Kent and Royal Holloway might be worth a look as back ups, with likes of Nottingham, York, Durham, Sussex , Birmingham as non London upper tier.

The whole system is insane as @Piggywaspushed says. DD1 took a gap year so that she could apply with grades in hand and also because she wasn't ready to go away and was unsure if she'd even pass one of her A levels. She made a bad subject choice at A level and got CBA. I was actually proudest if her C grade as she worked incredibly hard to get it. The A was in the subject she's now (broadly) studying and when she applied during her gap year she got offers for every course she applied for. She did an art foundation locally during her gap year which was great.
It's so hard as accommodation goes so quickly and if you're applying through clearing that makes it even more difficult.
Interesting to read a thread on Mumsnet where not every DC is going to get AAA*. Feels a bit more real world. And if you're doing a creative / practical subject then it's a bit more fine tuned than going to a RG university, links with industry can be more important.

Ds wishes to study Economics, over Business, Finance or Engineering. It is what he wants to do so he is going to give it a shot. As others say, it is 3-4 years of his life.

For Nottingham or equivalent, he won't be applying for the pure Economics (with Econometrics) which I assume the Cambridge wannabes would be going for. He is looking at joint degrees and less obvious Economics choices, ideally BSc, but whose modules still largely cover his interests.

With your cautionary tale in mind, for his standard choices, we will probably choose as insurance at a decent uni but in a business or finance-related course that is not so competitive.

Thanks for all your pointers. This is refining ds' approach to UCAS.

And if you're doing a creative / practical subject then it's a bit more fine tuned than going to a RG university, links with industry can be more important.

@Philandbill I would agree with this. I only have experience of creative subjects through dd. Creative unis are a whole different ballgame. It does require careful research as each one is different and certain unis are outstanding in one area. The portfolio is all important, UCAS grades much less so. The foundation year is good to figure out which area of art and design or specialism is of interest and to build up a portfolio in that area. If it is applied art, then links to industry are important for finding a job. This is in turn partially influenced by location. Not all but many of the good unis are located near or around the various studios and companies that hire.

Absolutely. DD1 is at Man Met on a fairly specialised course. The plan is to do a year in industry next year in the hope of experience which will help her find a job. We looked at other places but Man Met seemed to be the one pushing industry links the most and one of the few actively encouraging a year out.

Be very careful about “a year in industry”. Who finds it? Unis advertise them and loads of students apply. Many are disappointed. DD did a degree at LCF. She found her own work experience as many do. Have you actually asked if everyone who wants to do this actually does?