Some universities will go bust thread 2

[GinForBreakfast]

Continuing as thread 1 has filled up.

On mergers...so two places merge, cut staff numbers in half, double student numbers. The result: larger lectures, less individual or small group contact time, drifting student populations, more pressure on library and learning resources or lab time, less access to personal tutors, overstretched admin services and so on. So it exacerbates exactly the negatives that the "shut em down" crowd decry. What's the point then?

@felissamy You are describing a closure. Not a merger. There would be the buildings and courses with similar numbers. You could not have A star students doing the same as the CCC students - obviously. However mergers of management and services could save money. Plus so many European unis do have larger numbers in lecturers. We maybe do need to look at use of lecture halls and who actually attends. It’s easy just to say nothing works but not much has been tried.

I fail to see how a uni that is receiving money from customers and spending money is not essentially a business. Ok, it’s not got shareholders kicking the Cexec up the backside and they appear unaccountable to anyone. If not willing to run along commonly agreed business principles. let the government dictate what they do, except they won’t. As unis are cutting staff, they clearly do accept some form of business model.
@ElaineMBenes You can cut out the snide nasty comments too. On MN this is always the resort of folks who lose an argument. I guess you might be redundant under my plans?

European universities have massive lectures...yes, I studied there. And guess what, they barely pay fees.
And if course mergers are about rationalizations - otherwise where is the savings?

and they appear unaccountable to anyone

Apart from the regulator, CMA, charities commission, Home Office, PSRBs....

You could not have A star students doing the same as the CCC students - obviously. However mergers of management and services could save money.

How would this work in practice then? Would you need a course portfolio that catered for a wide range of entry requirements? How would you spilt the A star students from the C student? An increased portfolio requires more professional services support, not less.

I fail to see how a uni that is receiving money from customers and spending money is not essentially a business. Ok, it’s not got shareholders kicking the Cexec up the backside and they appear unaccountable to anyone. If not willing to run along commonly agreed business principles. let the government dictate what they do, except they won’t. As unis are cutting staff, they clearly do accept some form of business model.

How many businesses do you know that are forced to sell their main product at a loss? And when they diversify, are subject to a series of policies that undermine that diversification and make that product unattractive?
The government already dictates what we do! That's the point you continue to ignore /not understand.
And there absolutely is accountability. You've had this explained to you multiple times.

@ElaineMBenes You can cut out the snide nasty comments too. On MN this is always the resort of folks who lose an argument. I guess you might be redundant under my plans?

Haha nope. I've managed to survive multiple rounds of redundancies. I'm actually good at my job which I'm sure disappoints you.

And what argument have I lost exactly?

@TizerorFizz stop embarrassing yourself. Each post you make just reveals more of your ignorance of how HE works.

And when you start being rude to posters who actually work in the system, you are just being silly.

You could not have A star students doing the same as the CCC students

Of course you could. University is not school. It's a completely different style of teaching, and of learning; some will do better at university and some will do less well.

There is no statistical data which indicates that those who do best at 18 will also be those who do the best 3 or 4 years later. There are a myriad reasons for this, ranging from the subject(s) taken, to the type of exam, to the educational environment etc etc etc.

Post degree very few employers – bar big law firms and some financial institutions – will give a monkey's what A level grades you got. They are far more likely to run their own tests, interviews and assessments than go back to A levels. Universities are the same if applying for a Masters, they will dig down in depth into your first degree, they may not even ask what your A levels were.

I’ve said this before but my children are both equally intelligent- but one got A stars and As and the other Bs and Cs. In fact I would say the latter is more inquisitive, more philosophical and deep thinking and he pretty much has a photographic memory. They could absolutely be at the same uni and on the same course. If it was mainly assessed by coursework (which many degrees are) I suspect the second one would get a 1st.

And some RG unis like Nottingham (where my dd with the A stars and As is) had multiple courses in clearing asking for 3 Cs this year, so they must think they would be able to hold their own.

I don't disagree with idea that all students can be taught together. I work at a uni with a pretty broad intake. We manage. I am loving the idea which will not happen in a million years that, say, Oxford Brookes merged with Oxford, London Metropolitan merges with UCL, Anglia Ruskin with Cambridge, Sunderland with Durham.....I think there is far too much reputational crap at work and elitism to ever allow that.

@felissamy You have chosen stark examples. Why not look at Oxford Brooks and Bucks? Or Westminster and Greenwich? Or South Bank as well. And why not London Met and West London? There clearly are savings to be made and some unis absolutely could take others over and keep the identities. Think how John Lewis kept old names for their shops. JLR makes cars priced from £40,000 to £200,000. Different models, different customers. I agree there are undoubted challenges but with a huge sector it seems reasonable to look at some mergers.

Im not embarrassed to have alternate ideas. Regulators are not customers. There’s a huge difference between who tries to regulate HE (poorly) and what employers and customers and parents might think.

Yes, HE is paid by the state in some countries but there are elite Unix too. Grand Ecoles in France for example. Italy is full of private unis. Their state ones are not in top 100 despite being very old. Lots of unis have high drip
out rates. I’ve no issue with loans. I’ve a bigger issue with students paying tax for 40 years for an inferior product.

I don't see where the savings are to be had in 'merging' institutions that are 20 miles or more apart from each other. No saving on utilities or ground staff. Explain what it is meant to mean please - because it is simply just a nice way of saying closure. Perhaps I e makes a saving by having only I e VC, but the way those senior management go, can't see that later shrinking. Would probably argue it needed to grow.

It's not the having alternative ideas that's embarrassing for you @TizerorFizz

It's the rudeness towards people who have knowledge, experience and expertise in this area and the suggestion that we deserve to lose our jobs because we don't agree with you.

And neither are the private universities in Italy in top 100, so I don't see what your point is.

I think mergers can work as it goes - City and St George's for example - it'll take a couple of years of bloody hard work but should yield benefits. That said, it's more like a take over with City being the dominant partner. UCL like acquiring too...

@ElaineMBenes Ok. So what uni do you run? I guess none of them. You always think your job trumps the ideas of others. If you were top dog I might listen. However you are just into job preservation and arguing with me. You have no ideas at all. No organisation, in the face of challenges, can stand still. Ideas are needed. You don’t have one.

@felissamy That larger classes make little difference. Cost to student makes little difference. Quality is about more than this. Maybe large classes and static tuition fees is the way to go?

Not sure why you've decided to dislike me but you're coming across as a bit of dick tbh with your personal insults.

I don't think my job trumps everyone but neither do your ill informed ideas. I've asked you before but why do you think your opinions are more valuable than those who work in the sector? Why do you refuse to accept that there things we can't do because we don't have control over all aspects of how universities are run. That's not us refusing to look at alternatives, it's us trying to work within the restrictions placed upon us by the government or regulatory bodies.

I'd love to engage in a discussion about the state of HE and what we can do to improve the situation but instead you just want to throw insults my way.

Anyone who thinks students won’t notice larger classes or not mind larger classes has No.Idea.

just stop @TizerorFizz - you’re an embarrassment. I feel sorry for your colleagues ( if you actually work at all).

It’s constant nastiness isn’t it? You don’t actually want to engage. I’m now a bit of a dick. I’m not listening because I'm
at the back of the class. I’m embarrassing myself. Insult after insult. Lose an argument and be insulting. It’s so friendly and grown up.

UCL acquired Institute of Education because they had no education wing and it is on their doorstep. They are not going to merge with Westminster or University of West London in a thousand years

Please can you tell me what argument I've lost?

Other posters have said very similar things to me but I appear to be the only person you have an issue with. Why is that?
I'm the only one you've said deserves to lose their job.... and the only person you've said must be shit at my job. Why is that?

Oh agree they wouldn't touch those with a barge pole! (They also took over School of Pharmacy.) I was just using UCL as an example of a successful merger/acquisition.

I'm not convinced merging institutions need to be that close physically - as I said City have St G which is what 10 miles away. UCL (and others) have a big Stratford campus. Many non-London institutions also have a London campus.

There are gains with economies of scale, in back office functions. Certainly not in student-facing stuff, but I think sharing back-office functions (if we can get a VAT exemption) is a sensible thing to do. And would certainly help finances.

I think Tim Leunig also has some interesting proposals - also cash neutral which should appease the tax payer.

Tinkering around the edges, by offering an inflationary increase in fees, which is what looks to be on the table isn't going to cut it long term frankly.

This is fantastically rude, Tizer.

I work in a university in the finance team and hate the thought of a merger. It would involve several years of chaos no doubt! Trying to align two different systems etc… I’m not really sure how much money would be saved. Maybe consolidating some courses and sharing staff?