Some universities will go bust thread 2

[GinForBreakfast]

Continuing as thread 1 has filled up.

@GinForBreakfast You are really quite rude. You might not realise it, but some of us did quite well out of pt stuffy and to some extent, apprenticeships are reverting to this model. As they should. You can sneer all you like but change happens in many organisations because it has to. See comment I highlighted earlier and actually come up with ideas that don’t involve getting loads more students through the door! The only way some unis will do this is by lowering entry standards or robbing other unis of their students. Organised change is always better than disorganised chaos.

@TizerorFizz but your suggestions consistently fail to acknowledge that we are operating in a very different system to the one that existed 40 years ago.
You refuse to acknowledge the huge number of restrictions placed upon universities which prevents them from making many of the cages suggested.

You assume we're resistant to change when we're actually being realistic as to what is possible under the current system. We're changing what we can while considering the needs and wants of our students. The 'back in my day' narrative is not helpful.

Well there is evidence that suggests universities that put their heads in the sand and base finance on illusory student numbers will fail so you need change. I don’t really care that you complain about me and others who think there needs to be a bigger variety of HE. It will come. We are entitled to reference our experience which is different and I think will come about because it will have to. Apprenticeships will probably force change when fu
time students evaporate. Regulation won’t stop unis going bust and it’s clear student projections are fantasy as they stand. At the moment it’s tinkering at the edges. Regulations can be changed of course! Like laws.

The first thing that really needs to happen is underwriting students ability to transfer to a different university, should one university go bust or cancel the course or materially alter it, during their time there. If that does not happen, then projected numbers will drop further. Students should be allowed to transfer in an insolvency event. Bit like the bank account guarantee. That stability needs to be given, presumably to both domestic and international undergraduates.

@TizerorFizz I'd love to see more apprenticeships but there's a few things to bear in mind. Firstly, degree apprenticeships are delivered by universities. We need a university sector to be able to deliver them.
Secondly, the current model makes apprenticeships even more expensive to run than a standard degree programme and this is mainly due to regulatory requirements and the significant amount of bureaucracy involved and we HAVE to do.
Thirdly, the government is reducing the number of and type of apprenticeships available and adding more restrictions around who can do them. I've just had to shelve an apprenticeship which would have been very popular due to the changes.

I also don't know where you are the idea that universities are thinking that they can attract huge numbers of students I the current climate and context. What makes you think that?
Part of the issue is that there aren't huge pots of untapped potential students. We are not going to be saved by recruiting more UG home students and the international market is challenging. We know that.

But of course, your assumption is that everyone working at a university is stupid 🙄 I've never come across anyone as negative as you or someone who is clearly incredibly biased against the modern UK HE system.

To be fair to @TizerorFizz(goodness knows why ) the report on sector finances does show that as a whole the sector has forecast 20 odd percent increase in home recruitment. Demographic changes will account for some of that, but clearly there aren’t enough in the pipeline to achieve those predictions. One applicant can only go to one uni, and several have effectively predicted they’ll be the chosen ones! However - we cannot collaborate with each other, thanks to CMA regs. So I have no idea whether our neighbouring institution is planning on setting up a new BA in basket weaving to try and attract our BA Wicker Studies students. So I have to assume that BA Wicker Studies will recruit in similar numbers as previously.

I think a few posters need to read the OFS reports. It’s going to result in change and yes, even mergers! There’s talk of that business solution too.

When you think about it, there’s a huge need for some grads but too many are not getting jobs. In fact grad apprenticeships are a fraction of degrees offered. Yes, undoubtedly too complex so hopefully streamlining is possible. But very many apprentices are not doing degrees at all. I would like universities to offer the courses on the level below to get better integration.

In theory the LLE, starting in 2026/7, is supposed to encourage applicants to go for level 4 and 5 qualifications. The demand isn’t there though, and frankly I doubt the LLE will be a catalyst for significant change.

Mergers - yes will happen (some have already!). The idea around a MAT-type model is interesting. Need CMA to change law to allow such collaboration though.

”However - we cannot collaborate with each other, thanks to CMA regs.”

So you cannot collaborate to supposedly maintain “competition”? That is ridiculous in this climate, because you need collaboration to create efficiency for students and the whole sector. There is nothing wrong with certain universities only offering certain courses and delivering those really well. You do not need every university to deliver it to create some competition.

Perhaps it's just my university that's being VERY cautious in projections for growth! And sensibly so, there just isn't the pipeline.
Our focus is on income generation rather than huge growth in student numbers.

Indeed. Imagine a group of unis within say a 30 mile radius. All offering BAs in History. And struggling to offer the range of options that satisfies most of their students’ interests because they don’t have the breadth of specialists. Now imagine those unis got together and decided that Poppleton Uni would offer BA Mediaval History, Universoty of Poppleton BA Early Modern, Poppleton Met would do Victorian Studies and Poppleton Beckett Post-War Studies. Students would choose the uni based on the course that interested them the most. Students happy, numbers sustainable, academics secure in their jobs, academics teaching their specialism. Win win!

Or even better, but requiring even more collaboration, students at Poppleton Met could go to Poppleton Uni to take a Medieval history module in year 2 and combine that with modules in early modern at Poppleton Uni. That way the academics in a city can truly follow and teach their interests and the students get what they want too. Fully acknowledge it would be hard to administer, but we should be ambitious in the thinking.

@titchy Just maybe I occasionally read up on a topic! Mn wisdom is questionable at times.

@NeedingCoffee Yes of course that could be a model! We already know RG are “poaching” students. So why not be creative over merging courses and universities.

There is also merit in making sure the university product is respected. By students who perceive they are paying for it and employers who recruit the grads. They need confidence in the product which most people agree is being eroded.

There could also be merit in accepting not all degrees cost the same and deliver the same outcomes. If you covet Louboutins, you don’t buy Clark’s instead and think they are the same. So not enough students will want the lower tariff unis if they can get to a Louboutin one. However the role of some universities could be a much broader HE product but cost to student will matter. We know other countries have technical universities. We have maybe one? We have loads of arts specialist unis instead. We need a review of what we need with an aim of offering courses of high quality and less breadth in some areas of study. Too much choice is not always better. Think of a Michelin starred restaurant. The best often just do a tasting menu. Exquisite with the best ingredients. As a degree should be too.

Yep! Though the LLE is supposed to encourage this. But yes agree. This is where the MAT model just might facilitate such thinking. I know very little about organisational legal governance - but a corporation comprising several unis (all of which have their own OfS register and degree awarding powers and enough autonomy to be able to make their own admissions decisions etc - any threat to autonomy will be a massive massive barrier btw) might satisfy CMA.

The Scottish institute for theatre, dance, film and television went bust yesterday. Not technically a university I guess although bbc website says it awards degrees. Partnered with Bath spa uni who I guess are the awarding body. I’ve seen stuff on social media from students saying they have normal undergraduate student loans and fees. They found out on social media!

I read in the press that the Treasury may impose a 6% levy on international student fees?

Yes I don't know if it's 6 percent but a levy was noted in today's white paper

It's just insane, it's like they want universities to collapse

The levy is for consultation - 6% was suggested. But can only be applied to English unis…. 🤦‍♀️ Reducing the graduate visa to 18 months plus all the other limitations is pretty bad though.

Regardless of what this eventually looks like after consultation, the reputational damage to the HE sector is huge. At a time when international recruitment is vital for financial stability and growth in the sector.

I agree that it deters international students and what is more, clarity is required. Since they taxed private schools too, many international students may fear a 6% levy could rise to 20%! The sector needs urgent clarity.

This is just more of the same - random ad hoc policies that have un-thought-through consequences. It’s like the timid increase in student fees that was completely wiped out by the employer NI increases.

Our uni sector shld never have become so reliable on foreign students but it was a convenient way for successive govts to avoid increasing funding and avoid the necessary reform of the sector and the funding model.

The 6% levy is to solve a different problem (which is for Labour to get re-elected so they’ve now gone all in on anti immigration).

The sector needs a coherent STRATEGY and a strong, effective advocate.

With Labour in power and a strongly unionised workforce and a strong student union, there should be a strategic task force comprising these stakeholders to work together to develop a sustainable, holistic model that works for all our young people and our economy. But there’s…. nothing…

The 6% levy is just stupid. What problems can it possibly solve? It’s just taking money from one bit of the public sector and giving it to another. Perhaps it’s to get universities that attract a lot of foreign students eg Imperial to subsidise those that can’t eg Kent????? I suppose that might have some credence, but that isn’t what they’ve said and it’s still stupid.

Anyhow, Gaby Hinsliff has written about the betrayal of students in today’s Guardian:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/may/13/young-people-degrees-labour-market-ai

And one cannot help wondering whether this is just a ruse to keep immigration figures down for the next election, regardless of cost to the higher education sector. I think they need to scrap this levy urgently. The visa shortening may be less of an issue because it is something genuine international students may worry about much later, if at all, as plenty will want to go back to their home countries anyway.

Is this the thread to beat up academics as stupid and not knowing how to do business?

Here's something that those who've benen saying this might like to take note of:

https://www.ft.com/content/ee16d5fa-6365-44cd-9818-40d5ba26b00a

The podcast is hosted by the Financial TImes. Who are, I imagine, thought to be quite knowledgeable about, um business & finance.

Go to around 7:30 minutes in to hear all the finance & Westminster journalists note that "the previous Government left the universities in an appalling mess." And they go on to label the previous Government's policies as "catastrophic mistakes" and say that the new government is following the previous government's lack of intelligence about university policy.

This is not us stupid academics, with our heads in the sand. These are seasoned political & economic journalists, noting that the last decades of government mismanagement of universities and their research means we're likely to miss out on the HUGE opportunity that the collapse of research in the USA offers us.

With the right investment & visa easing, we could bring top teams in biosciences particularly, and also climate scientists (both areas that have been deliberately hit by Trump) to the UK. But they'll probably go to Germany ...

Just wondering if indeed it could be a “subsidy” for not top tier universities. Isn’t the idea that it goes into apprenticeships? Who is most involved with them? Could some universities benefit? Obviously not for lower level courses but hopefully degree ones? I don’t like the idea of international students being put off but some struggling universities barely have any!

@YellowAsteroid probably, some people seem to get a kick out of it.

One problem is that I’d guess the majority of academics on this thread (myself included) have no authority or power over high level university decisions regarding the running of the university or finances.

Academics have got quite a good idea about what sort of stuff is good for students and what isn’t good. so if we see ridiculous unworkable suggestions from non academics about what needs to be done we know why it won’t work.

But that’s not to say we want to stick our heads in the sand and for nothing to change….its just not down to us.

At work it’s frustrating that the SLT’s answer just seems to be carry on doing more with less. My team has gone from 7 academics to 4. So the workload has nearly doubled just from an academic pov. On top of that admin support gets cut. Then a manager gets made redundant and people at my level are expected to pick up part of the managers workload because they’re not getting replaced (above my pay grade literally). No idea how they can just keep decimating staff and expect the remaining staff to continue.

Id imagine even the very senior managers at the universities inc the pro vice chancellors feel their hands are a bit tied. Unless there is some joined up thinking and a national review then no individual university is going to be the first/only to make a radical change. Someone at a national level needs to take control of there’s going to be a shake up of the sector.

I do agree with you that government mismanagement of the sector and ignorance of the issues has had a major impact on. Totally right about the visa mess. And only the government could change that, totally out of the hands of the universities. It’s infuriating. Things could be improved massively by sorting this. I don’t understand why the universities and unions aren’t lobbying about this louder.