Some universities will go bust thread 2

[GinForBreakfast]

Continuing as thread 1 has filled up.

The thing is, most universities are good, for the right student on the right course. And if something goes wrong there are channels that students can go through to rectify.

League tables are useful intel but not particularly scientific, they can be subjective and they can be gamed. It's good to be aware of them but each student should assess their options based on their own preferences and aspirations.

@GinForBreakfast Looking at standard league tables the ones at the bottom aren’t great! They take students who should probably not be doing degrees.

In the early years, polys didn’t offer degrees in subjects such as English, History, MFLs etc. Their courses were aligned to business and public sector. Many were engineering and technology based. Degrees were awarded by CNAA not the poly.

Looking at standard league tables the ones at the bottom aren’t great! They take students who should probably not be doing degrees.

But do they seem at risk of going bust though? Because that’s the topic of the thread.

At least one of the universities that seem to be doing badly financially are, gasp, Russell Group, and some others are decently ranked.

One of 30 RG unis? So most ok? I think my preferred strategy would be to cull even if it’s courses at RG! They are nearly all bloated. When international students dry up even more, what then? We do need rationalization. Mismanagement and a failing business model always results in change. Thats what needs to happen. All industries have to amend what they offer if the customer who pays the bills isn’t paying any more. The govt backs uk student fees but they aren’t high enough. So either we cull, get the international students back or put up Uk fees.

from the home office visa stats released earlier in the week the student visa numbers though lower than both the two previous years were not showing in any sense a really dramatic fall.

The decline, such that it is, will of course also not be seen equally across universities, and there are a not insignificant number of unis who do / did not have a particularly large international student presence to start with.

The highly ranked ones most at risk, they probably need to reduce the amount of 80% funded contract research. Stop the expensive to run courses.

Or we put fees up to where somewhere near where they would be if they had kept up with inflation.

Is there a list yet of these universities? I’m about to start a PhD and I’m getting worried the university will fold in the next few years!

They all publish accounts, and HESA provides a lot of higher level financial data. So whilst there might not be an official list - and let’s face it going to be quite a lengthy list - there is plenty of information out of there. I’d strongly recommend a bit of extra due diligence.

Thanks. There was a list on the other thread of universities that have taken cost-cutting measures and some posters said that the institutions that will really be struggling are the ones not on the list because they’re not being pro-active. I’m paraphrasing, but that was the gist. My university definitely wasn’t on the list.

I’ll do some digging before I (maybe) start in a couple of weeks’ time.

What do you mean by early years. In the 70s they were doing the most pioneering degrees in Eng Lit, modern languages, visual culture, sociology, politics, laws etc etc. You speak out of your proverbial.

All universities are making cuts, high ranked or not. It is just the times. Nowhere has a multi billion endowment like Ivy Leagues ... I have been in university sector for 40 years and it is just slow contraction. You need to ask what a PhD student needs....knowing your supervisors won't be made redundant is one important thing - but then they might leave at any moment. If you are doing sciences or studio based work, I guess there are technology or materials driven concerns.

@TizerorFizz I worked for a university at the bottom of the league tables. They hired a consultant for 3 months to improve their ranking. She understood the metrics inside out and pushed the university up 40 places with minimal changes to the student experience.

Don't rely solely on rankings. Some universities really know how to game it. It's a classic case of Goodhart's Law and it's not serving students well.

I'm doing a PhD at the moment. Having a supervisor at a RG university would offer some security I think. I would also consider why you want to do a PhD, if it's for a job in academia I would seriously consider the options available given that the sector is likely to be contracting a great deal over the next few years.

Here - LOADS of RGs in enough financial trouble to need large scale redundancy programmes:

https://qmucu.org/qmul-transformation/uk-he-shrinking/

@GinForBreakfast I know my local uni is pretty poor. You only have to look at entry standards. Plus some of the degree courses are very basic in terms of breadth. As a college of HE it had specialisms linked to local industry but now some of the degrees are hardly cutting edge. To be honest it should revert to what it did well. Another uni around 25 miles away isn’t much better. I don’t need to rely on league tables and they cannot move much on CUG due to entry tariffs and research. So reverting to what they were could be better for many.

@TizerorFizz is your local university known to be having financial difficulties or making redundancies?

@WriterOfWrongs No. However the next 4 nearest are all on the list. One is a former poly. There just needs to be consolidation within the sector. The poly can certainly soak up students from another “uni” just down the motorway!

@TizerorFizz thanks for answering.

I agree that consolidation seems a good idea - in theory. In practice there will be considerable issues.

@GinForBreakfast the league tables are like Ofsted, it's about knowing how to play the game.

My local uni has been hammered by the drop in international students meaning other unis lower their entry requirements.

I think it's disgusting how government over the decades has interfered with "market" and now won't intervene to help manage mergers or increase home fees.

@TizerorFizz I think we are making the same point, don't (only) rely on league tables.

I would question what the 'entry standards' metric really tells you anyway. Clearly it tells you something about the academic achievements of those applying to the university. However, it doesn't tell you anything about the quality of the course, or of the teaching, or of the overall experience.

Nor, most saliently, does it tell you much about the quality of graduate leaving the university. There are myriad reasons that someone might thrive at university but not at school (and vice versa).

How much employers take A level qualifications into account when they are hiring graduates is a moot point – and one often argued about on MN. I'll just put this out there, though: most university MA and MSc courses do not ask for applicants' A level grades.

@thing47 I agree it doesn’t tell any employer all they need to know but they probably know Durham needs better A levels than Derby. (Just plucked examples). Employers in stem might also be aware of how good, or not, a course is. For arts and humanities it’s different. As you know DD did MFL. Who asked her about these? No one. What they knew is the degree and where she went. They trusted that info but it’s a tiny bit of the whole picture. Far more is teased out in tests and at interview.

Agree @thing47. A level results can say more about the young person's school and social class than their academic ability.

I know Durham v Derby was an example pulled from thin air, but it’s interesting that both are on the list of universities making redundancies. Financial fragility is a great leveller.

Agreed that the Durham student probably had better A level grades than the Derby student. My point is that that does not de facto mean they are still a better student 3/4 years later – which is why, I presume, universities don't factor A level grades into their Masters admissions criteria. Much less that they are going to be a better employees.

Communications, marketing and journalism employers are also likely to have an idea of which relevant courses at which universities are well thought of (I don't feel qualified to comment re. MFLs).

I do completely agree with you that more is likely to become apparent during the hiring process.