Some universities will go bust thread 2

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Continuing as thread 1 has filled up.

Thread 1

Some universities will go bust www.mumsnet.com/Talk/higher_education/5128187-some-universities-will-go-bust

Thank you for the new thread!

Replying to a post on thread 1:

*Araminta1003 · Today 14:13

“This is a uni who have averaged £200m a year in profit/surplus”
@outdooryone has highlighted a paradox!

Namely that a uni treating students unfairly prima facie has a ton of cash.

So it stands to reason that those putting students’ first may be the cash strapped ones!*

That’s not a paradox @Araminta1003

I doubt there are universities that are cash-strapped purely or primarily because they put students first. It’s mainly about the reduction in funds they have had coming in and the fact that the fees for home students don’t cover what it actually costs the university per student head.

Failed to tag @Araminta1003

No need for a second thread. Article in Graun with the answer in the following research https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0165176524004415

seem to be quite a few caveats and exclusions summarised in the Graun article itself, I confess to not having read the detailed research in the link above. And in truth have no plans to do so as not the world’s biggest football fan.

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2024/sep/13/universities-with-premier-league-teams-attract-more-undergraduates-study-says Graun link.

@boys3 DN chose her uni based on her support for a football team! Yes, it’s a thing. I heard about this research a few weeks ago.

Regarding polys vs unis, @thing47 yes, there was a huge difference. The polys hardly offered any degrees! Mostly vocational and required 2 A levels to get in. Lots went as day release students.

Also there are working folk in the SE too. As I said earlier, there wasn’t a local uni! Many “first in family” had to leave home. Maybe people were just braver? Needs must!

I really think the historical memory about what polytechnics did is lost, allowing nonsense to be spoken.

Eg

By 1991, there were approximately 380,000 students enrolled in English polytechnics.
"Polytechnics were expected to concentrate largely on HE (‘advanced’) courses at sub-degree, degree and postgraduate levels and offered in different modes (full-time, sandwich and part-time)."

Jeeezus Christ what sort of bogus PhD could you nab from them?.

In the early 90s I remember there being a lot of 2 year courses at Polys and Institutes if education. . HNDs I guess but people still moved away. At 6th form you either looked through PCAS or UCCA to look for courses based on your grade predictions. There was copywriting at Falmouth, communications at Southampton, media production in Hull, which resulted in a job with the BBC for my friend. Alternately older, working people did evening courses to get an HNC in computing or day release business HND at a business school like Portsmouth.

Everyone I knew from my southeast village went away for university. First generation to go, but we went to school in an area people had chosen to live for having a slightly better school so going away to study was likely supported by parents. And it was easy to live cheaply so cost was not a concern. We all wanted to get away from our parents and our boring home town! Those who didn't want to move away were more likely the type of person to prefer to get a local job.

"Postgraduate" in this sentence is probably more likely to refer to a masters than a PhD.

There probably were masters courses at polys by 1990 but that’s 25 years plus after they were conceived. We mostly had lecturers who had worked in industry on my course. They did research into business methods and were very good lecturers. However what we’ve lost is the course for 2 years post A levels for dc who get lower grades. This should’ve seen as progression to a degree and a qualification in its own right. Dc can then go on for the degree if they wish.

Renaming these polys and others as unis has ensured dc can stay local to get a degree. This was no doubt seen as a positive in 1992. I’m not sure anyone would ever think there was parity between newly labelled unis and the older ones. 30 years on it seems some do and it’s not helpful to have so many. At the very least, there should be far broader course offerings at some former HE colleges.

To be a university you have to do research and knowledge exchange. These both COST money the grants for research so not cover the costs. This means all the amazing research intensive universities relied on the surplus of overseas students to prop up their research activity.

Poly's were all about latest practice in industry.

Yes. But as in business, if the paying customers go elsewhere, you need a new product snd change what you offer to get them back. I think unis have changed by dc not attending lectures and far more lecturing being on line. This doesn’t feel like value for money, and onerseas students are going elsewhere. It’s possible less courses but higher quality than present might be a better model.

Hull wasn't a poly.

By Southampton, presumably you don't mean the long established Russell Group university.

No, Southampton institute. Apologies to Hull. I didn't know that. My friend got in on 2 A levels less than 2 Cs so I made an assumption.

Nope! Founded in 1927 , just after the main 'civic universities' aka Redbricks.

It has suffered in recent years, most especially since Russell Group started dominating but in the 80s it had as god a reputation as many - especially for the Arts and politics. It's a really nice campus.

John Prescott, Roy Hattersley, Dame Sarah Gilbert, Anthony Minghella, Anthony Giddens, Roger McGough all went there, to name a few.

It is struggling these days but it is definitely a Proper University.

And how could I forget that Philip Larkin was its librarian!

I went to Hull in the mid 80s. Turned down Leeds, Warwick, Newcastle and firmed Hull with Nottingham as my insurance. Had a great time. Lots of private school pupils from London Independents there too (Rodean/St Paul's/Westminster).

Fond memories of the John McCarthy Bar in the Students Union. Spent far too much time in there. John was also a Hull alumni.

Really don't know what has happened to it over the past 30 years or so. There were no league tables to peruse when I went, but it held its own with other Universities and was considered as good. Such a shame to see it trailing in league tables nowadays... Bradford is another one that that has fallen spectacularly.

I would love to know why this has happened if anyone could shed some light.

Yes of course! He died just before I arrived at the Uni.

I reckon it's partly location, but largely the non RG curse which only a few have escaped (Lancaster, notably). I went to York and we regarded Hull as on a par and actually shared some academics. We have two Hull graduates from the 90s in my department and both have good brains.

I went to Sheffield Poly in the 80s, and whilst I don’t doubt there were students doing HNDs, etc, I only ever met those doing degrees - Teaching, Physiotherapy, Nursing, Engineering, Urban Land Economics, Business, Computer Science, etc that were all aimed at leading directly to a job, plus some Media Studies, Fine Art, etc types.

Hull invented the chemistry and technology for liquid crystals, which we rely on today, and yet Chemistry is threatened with closure there. Politics was also brilliant - one of the problems is the vile RG branding skewing preferences.

Polys in London - Middlesex, PNL, PCL, PNEL etc, were brilliant in so many fields. This maligning is shit.

The polys hardly offered any degrees!

That is not true. The majority of polys had degree-awarding status (although they may have chosen not to exercise it). The only difference is that the awarding body was a different one, however it was still fully recognised and validated by the government, and was subject to regulation and oversight.