Personal Statements to be Scrapped

[Xenia]

Might be of interest - Ucas scraps personal statements for university admissions
"Instead of a 4000-character statement, from next year applicants will be asked to answer three questions on why they want to study their chosen course and how they are prepared for it."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cger11kjk1jo

How would I know if they’ve had help? 🤷‍♀️

Re making allowances for PS where they might not have had extra help……it would be impossible to tell who has and who has not. Anyone can search the internet and find and copy examples. It’s why some places don’t read them at all or may not place and weight on them in deciding who to interview (the few places that do interviews) - it’s not really possible to know if the candidate’s parent or teacher or the internet write it fully or mostly or tweaked it or polished it, or never had sight of it.

In my mind, the more focused questions mean everyone has the chance to write about the relevant things. There is less scope to write about stuff that is irrelevant. The focus becomes more fully on the subject students wish to study - and where PS are read or used to decide who to give offers to, this evidence of engagement with the school curriculum and with materials outside of the school curriculum is what they want to see - and the questions are clearly focused on.

Anyone writing one for 24/5 who isn’t sure how to structure, would be well advised to write 3 paragraphs as if they are answering the 3 questions.

The best don’t just cite interests, but EVIDENCE from the course studied or outside the course of that interest, but also the ideas/thoughts that the evidence prompted the candidate to think about and conclusions they drew and further materials that then led them onto.

But we have to be realistic that most candidates won’t create the best PS because they simply arent the best candidates. Funnily enough, weaker candidates haven’t done the wider reading and engagement and can’t identify ideas apthey have drawn from their courses and conclusions they have drawn ….because they simply aren’t engaged in the subject at that level. And those weaker PS will be fine for most courses. Where it’s sad is when really strong candidates can’t produce a strong PS. That’s what the 3 Q format aims to help with.

It’s 4000 characters, not words. Massive difference.

Even with the new three questions people could still get help/get their mum to write it/get chatgpt to write it. Though ime ChatGPT writes shit personal statements.

In state schools, it would be very unusual for a school not to know a child was previously a looked after child even if they left care before the start of school. In part because being a previously looked after child forms part of the admissions criteria in state schools and also attracts pupil premium plus.

Just to say Xenia over the years on this site, your record keeping never ceases to amaze me...

Great to be able to look back in time like that - Impressive!

Thanks. In 2017 when the last children left for university I started scanning old records and throwing a lot of stuff out but having it scanned actually makes it much quicker to find than having to find an old box in the loft. I still have some of my grandfather's financial records from the 1920s which my father saved too.

My children's schools asked them to do a first draft of the personal statement in term 3 of lower sixth in the July before summer holiday just so they began to think about it and where they might apply which is a good plan. I don't think they had help other than one person at school reads them all all over (and possibly the Head as well) eg one of my twins had a fairly boring one and the other wrote a particularly interesting one so fascinating his Head mentioned it to me. Both got their places at Bristol. Neither was given or told what to write and their subjects were not choosing people based on PS anyway.

yeah. Typo on my part, not ignorance. But thanks anyway.

4/5 of your children are solicitors? You must be totally inspirational, and really love your job to influence your DC. Seriously all credit to you I am so in awe I don't quite know what else to say, I've defo put mykids off any health related careers.
Also well done to your twins. I wish them a long and happy career.

@Xenia not to sidetrack but that's impressive, a family full of solictors, who probabbly all enjoy their careers and find it fulfilling? What are the top 3-5 personality traits or attitudes that make law/ the role of solicitor suitable to a young man or woman. 🙏

Do you know how low a parent's income has to be to qualify for free or subsidised music lessons?

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/higher_education/5025935-agonising-between-university-offers?reply=133868835

On the same thread you were insisting you knew far more about engineering than the women posting from the industry because "DH works in engineering".

You either have no clue just how tough it is for low income kids to access the arts or the other "essential" extra curriculars or you just want them kept as a handy wedge to keep the riff raff out of the "good" universities.
It isn't just lack of provision of tuition and instruments/sports equipment etc - its being able to practice in crowded housing, access events etc without MC parents paying, form filling and ferrying them around with one eye to the future school and university applications.

@C8H10N4O2 DH didn’t just “work in engineering”. He owned an engineering consultancy. His qualifications are BEng, CEng, FICE, FIStructE, FCIHT. So a Fellow of 3 Engineering institutions with a very long track record of running a hugely successful, award winning consultancy. He, in your view, knows nothing. A few posters whose dc have engineering degrees know more do they?

Low income dc can access arts at school and I know many who have in my role as a school governor. Anyway, I am done here. I’ve worked hard to try and make sure dc have opportunities. Not all take them but don’t say I know nothing about careers in engineering. This household has lived it and breathed it for nearly 50 years!!

It is certainly interesting that 4 of the 5 children are solicitors as although they know I like my work (and have worked for myself since the 1990s) I would have been perfectly happy had they chosen any other work eg my father was a doctor as is one of my siblings. However I suppose they know it can be interesting work and can be well paid and may be some people do just do what their parents do for careers.

"What are the top 3-5 personality traits or attitudes that make law/ the role of solicitor suitable to a young man or woman." 50% of people fail the post graduate exams so I suppose you do need quite high A level and university grades and be able to understand the law and pass the exams. I would probably put that first. Secondly it can be quite hard work but so are many other jobs. You will be working in an office (and court if you do court work) so someone needs to be prepared to work in the office (although one of my twins who works as an in house solicitor in his first qualified jobs works 4 days a week from home - here - still lives at home) so it is not quite the same as 5 days a week in an office these days, since the pandemic. The other works 2 days a week at least from home.

You have to be quite determined as the process of applying to firms of solicitors and numbers of applications (I applied to 139 London firms at university and had 25 interviews before getting an offer to train me) you have to make for many people is quite an effort.

@TizerorFizz
Low income dc can access arts at school and I know many who have in my role as a school governor

There are plenty of opportunities for low income kids to access arts/sports/other extra curricular stuff but you don't seem to understand how difficult it can be for some children.

Simply attending school is a huge accomplishment for some.

DD would not be classed as low income or vulnerable but due to a combination of family health issues, bereavements and other difficult circumstances in the last few years, doing multiple extra curricular activities has sadly been way down the agenda as too difficult practically and mentally to fit in. Money is not the only issue.

@Scumtastic Clearly looking at absence stats this is true but in my long time in education most dc get to school and most dc enjoy school. The extremely difficult cases are not the norm. Far from it.

in my long time in education most dc get to school and most dc enjoy school.

The picture is more complex than this in some areas. There are schools with 30/40/50+% persistent absence. There are huge numbers of DC who do not enjoy school and are not fine in school, but absence in some areas is far more complex than whether the child enjoys school.

Well things have changed as is well documented. Aside from that many who do drag themselves in to school are coping with a massive amount. Getting their qualifications is enough and a big accomplishment. Some are in big FE colleges which doesn’t exactly lend itself to lunchtime choir etc , many kids have jobs now….

What relevance would choir etc have to do with engineering anyway?

Most teenagers and their parents have bobbies because it helps overall life and the person rather than a way into university but it certainly helps in getting on in life, even if just with the neighbours and friends and work colleagues if you have some interests so there is at least one thing you have in common with them. Also some children are pretty useless at just about everything to do with school lessons but if you can find that one thing they like as a hobby that can be the seed of things that helps them realise there are aspects of life at which they are good - football or whatever it might be.

I am glad the op has started this thread as I have a few questions further down and I hate starting new threads!

The consensus amongst admissions staff on Mumsnet, the student room, newspapers etc is that they don't care at all and most of them ignore your DoE, piano lessons, hobbies etc but might be interested in a PT job. I remember reading a 2012 guardian article where their reporter was allowed to sit with Oxford's admissions while they were making decisions. One of them was wondering why on earth a candidate had mentioned their grade 8 violin and how was that relevant? Another was looking at a gap year student's medicine application and said "I hope he hasn't spent it on beaches". He had volunteered at St John's ambulance so was offered place. Even the lady who runs the Lucy Cavendish outreach programme by Cambridge and also goes round schools to advise students about their ps says they are not interested in your hobbies, but you can include a very small paragraph in case other universities are interested. This article is from 2012, yet even at least until 2019 our secondary was advising DS to do lots of extracurriculars because apparently they influence university decisions.

However, when you apply for your first graduate job they want to see what kind of person they will be working with and how you problem solve and work with others. Apparently then they notice your PT job, any societies you were involved in, hobbies and ask questions to see if you've gained any relevant, transferable skills. Running a homework club with other pupils might give you some management and prioritising skills, teach you how to read people's needs and how to make yourself clear. It's good if you can do it.

Now, from the BBC article this question would throw me off.

• How have your qualifications and studies helped you to prepare for this course or subject?

"This is an opportunity to showcase relevant skills gained at school and how they will help in their chosen course."

What qualifications do they expect somebody to have, apart from GCSEs? Some people might put relevant content certificates thinking that they have to have a certificate e.g. Programming in Python. All you need is to show work you've done, algorithms and maths you've learnt. And the BBC says it's about what you've learnt at school. The same maths, biology etc like everyone else? I thought the point was to show what you've learnt outside of school!

Basically my understanding was that in the first question you write a small paragraph about your interest, the second what you have read, watched, listened e.g. books, journals, courses, videos, magazines, lectures, talks, relevant work experience. And the third about any hobbies, clubs, paid work or volunteering.

Can somebody explain, please?

@chocorabbit qualifications AND studies
so someone going for paramedic courses might talk about a life guarding qual they’ve done that covered first aid and emergency sitch preparing them for the course in they’ve got some transferable knowledge and an idea of what they’ll be facing.
someone going for nursing might talk about studying health and social care and how learning about the 5’c of care have helped them understand how to be a good nurse
it would depend on the student!

Thank you @Bunnyannesummers

I'm interested in the statement that most kids enjoy school. Do people agree? There were certainly things my children, who went to very different types of school, enjoyed about it. And I know some kids who loved the whole experience. But I suspect that for most, tolerating with high points is as good as it gets. I think we're very lucky indeed as adults if we actively enjoy our jobs- the same applies to school.

Qualification and studies refers to the qualifications they are taking at the moment - ie aspects of their current courses that have grabbed their interest and why. The thoughts they have had about the topics they have studied and conclusions they have drawn about areas of controversy. Qualification and studies can also give scope to talk about skills gained suiting their current studies - ie lab skills or analytical writing - precise examples should be given and specifically what has been learned.

Good PS will include what they formal studies at school or college have given them.
The later Q allows to show how they’ve gone beyond the curriculum and engaged further - it couldn’t have be prompted by aspects of the curriculum. Could be books, podcasts, talks, relevant work experience, exhibitions. Rather than just listing what done. It’s important to show what ideas have been gained or knowledge or interest promoted and what that has led onto.

So a good PS includes precise examples of evidence engaged with AND the ideas gained or thought processes promoted by them.

A good PS shows how these things have arisen in study at school/college and also beyond it,