Personal Statements to be Scrapped

[Xenia]

Might be of interest - Ucas scraps personal statements for university admissions
"Instead of a 4000-character statement, from next year applicants will be asked to answer three questions on why they want to study their chosen course and how they are prepared for it."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cger11kjk1jo

All kids do something outside of studying. Even if it's gaming on line or reading extra stuff. Nothing makes you a better person, but being able to work with others is very important for many courses at Uni as v few will not involve some group work.
Getting great A levels is wonderful and hard work. I know, I teach it.

Same here. A paragraph at the most.

@mumsneedwine Surely for some courses the ability to get on with others is vital? I tend to think unis should judge this in terms of suitability for the course. People facing degrees/roles for example. I’m not going to engage with people who think dc should not engage in anything because it gives them an advantage in life. We are all different and I’m not apologizing for anyone who sings and gains something from it. It’s a well known activity to assist with mental health too.

I also applaud dc who work, volunteer, play musical instruments, sing, play sport, take part in drama or in fact do anything above school work. Where would we be as a nation if no one bothers? No one going to the Olympics? No actors or musicians? Who on earth wants this? Life might not be fair to all but the majority have opportunities and they should, and do, take them. It enhances us all.

Clearing is so massive (now students can release themselves) that moving to a post qualification system would not be that different. One of the educational think tanks has set out how it might work

And many universities ignore personal statements.

I do university admissions and I think it is a good idea.

It just makes it clear to the students what content is useful to support their application, so they don't miss the mark through lack of advice.

It will also be easier for us to find that content as the text is more structured.

If students want to mention extra curriculars they can still do this. Honestly though I think it would be healthier if students weren't being told they need to do piano/ DoE/ sports so they can get into Uni. In most cases it won't make a difference and it would be better if these activities were chosen and pursued for their intrinsic value/ pleasure.

It would be doable. Exams could be earlier in the year with, potentially kids doing non examinable content for a month or so at the end of their final school year.
Think how much easier and fairer it would be if kids applied with results in hand. It would take out so much of the guesswork. It would also massively reduce costs to universities and students.

Post examination application would help with social mobility.

I'm really disappointed in this personal statement change. It needed to be removed completely. Doing extra curricular etc is great and my kids did plenty but they aren't relevant to going to university.

For the last decade most of the up and coming or high profile talent in those areas has come from the public school sector. That alone should tell you the activities are more an indicator of affluence than self motivation and talent.

All you are doing is correlating mainstream middle class activities with "talent". Its difficult to demonstrate that kind of "talent" if you live in a home where you are caring for a parent or younger siblings before and after school and don't have the financial or time access to the "enriching" activities. All such childrne have is a ridiculous amount of responsibility.

However as I recall you also consider a higher "BAME" intake to be a sign of a downgraded university so I doubt we will agree on this. I want talented DC in the bottom third to have the same access to "good" universities as their wealthier peers not be directed to institutions appropriate to their class.

Except they will still include it, because its excellent evidence of being able to stick with something /persevere, shows time management in being able to not only study for your a-levels and get good grades, but also put in the regular practice and prep for an instrumental exam of a high level all at the same time. It demonstrates a young person who's used to working hard and managing competing pressures which is what they'll need to do at university.

@TizerorFizz "
I also applaud dc who work, volunteer, play musical instruments, sing, play sport, take part in drama or in fact do anything above school work. Where would we be as a nation if no one bothers? No one going to the Olympics? No actors or musicians? Who on earth wants this?"

Nobody. However, this tread is about whether such things should be relevant in applications to non- related university degrees. Which they, patently obviously, shouldn't.

Define getting on with others- so kids who don’t rock the normal box as regards that or who are ND or have suffered trauma and other life challenges get excluded.

That has nothing to do with degree suitability. Some young people simply don’t have the headspace or time to do anything other than get their qualifications.

Even with all that you cant get grade 8 on any instrument without many hours of practise, presumbly carried out alongside the work you are putting for academic subjects.

Lots of young people who only have Alevels on their application can do all that. Many are juggling all sorts of things.

Exactly.

If personal statements make any difference at all then advantaged kids will be even more advantaged and disadvantaged kids will be more disadvantaged.

I’ve never said a word about BAME dc. Subj a load of rubbish on this thread. Maybe some dc are just going to do better than others. Who on tells a 6 or 8 year old they must do music for uni applications? Madness.

We are talking about students with the same course requirements. Students with years of parent orchestrated extra curriculars aren’t going to do better than others and aren’t better students. I think life pressures and challenges are just as worthy if not a better indication of ability to cope with uni life.

I forgot to mention that another reason that we should change to a post qualification application system is the ridiculousness of predicted grades. There are plenty of reports about this. Advantaged students are further advantaged by more generous predicted grades and more tactical use of them. More advantaged kids get even higher predicted grades than disadvantaged kid and they also tend to be more high reaching with where they apply.

A quick google came up with this article but there are many more Minority Report: the impact of predicted grades on university
admissions of disadvantaged groups 2020 UCL

I believe there has been some clamping down on over predicting of grades though.

@Periwinkl3 You are. I’m not. Most dc do what they enjoy and can gain a lot from it as a person. This all helps with their development and suitability for uni. It’s healthy to engage with society in any way you can, and I don’t know anyone who has forced anything. Dc make their own choices from what’s presented to them. My dc don’t like sport. They liked other things and if that’s helped them be successful so be it. Not sure it has but they loved their hobbies. I think dumbing everyone down is poor for society. We need dc to fly and we should applaud them. because, as I said. lots of things are free. To everyone.

When I was in school back in the dark ages (started secondary in 1976) free instrumental lessons, loan instruments and music groups on Saturdays were available to everyone. Maybe we should stop looking down in the arts so much and fund them properly.
And yes, I get that some students would still find it hard to engage, but not so many. I know this from experience of friends who are in the groups being discussed here as unable to engage. When it's free and available largely in school time, many more young people of all backgrounds can take part.

It is UCAS that tells teachers to be generous with UCAS predictions, for what it's worth, although generous isn't quite the right word.

How is not putting importance in extra curricular that have nothing to do with degree courses being applied for and which are no better than life challenges dumbing down?

UCAS definitely want to move away from hobbies and activities, especially those associated with advantage, being a large part of PSs. That's the whole point of the change (or a major point). My own DS plays in a brass band - and in the end removed this from his PS because it took up characters and was not really at all relevant. Cambridge, for example, specifically discourage students from mentioning any extra curricular stuff. (to be completely clear, what they say is to do those things to be more rounded and because you enjoy them - not to get into Cambridge. It's v confusing to US applicants!)

When you look at actual UCAS info on this change, and not the BBC link, it is clear the third box is for anything extra specifically related to the subject(s) you wish to pursue. It's not about soft skills. It's about reading and engaging in the ideas in Economics Review/history books beyond your textbook /reading challenging literature widely/ entering essay competitions, maths olympiads.

They will never erase disadvantage as affluent , university educated parents , and private schools tend to have the time, wealth, staffing etc to support all of this but removing the idea that adding that you are captain of the rugby team , take regular ski holidays, go shark diving in Mustique, is probably a step in the right direction. I think parents who argue against this are probably arguing forma stance of thinking their advantaged kids will lose out. I am sure they won't/
On another note, it will also stop students wasting characters writing about their job in Tescos and make them focus more in their statement on their course.

I have got so bored over the years of reading PSs desperately trying to make working behind the bar in a pub relevant to , say, a geography degree, where they have written one sentence explaining what their EPQ has done to enhance their studies and a few words about the skills gained through their NEA, and a bit in brackets stating they 'also study maths...

I hope UCAS really invest in training teachers about what they want and do more to communicate clearly with parents. The whole system at the moment is a bit opaque, rather archaic and very convoluted.

So how will they be able to weave in extenuating circumstances as often they will take up a lot of time and give very useful skills. Entering competitions on top of studying for Alevels in a less accommodating school or situation isn’t possible for many. Most won’t have actively chosen or pursued the extenuating circumstances though.

@Laundryliar "Even with all that you cant get grade 8 on any instrument without many hours of practise, presumbly carried out alongside the work you are putting for academic subjects."

Don't get your point?